the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

great pod casts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ57MPTfyzo

Rich

I think of tai chi as obsolete technology. Clearly it gets beaten by newer fighting technologies. But there are many examples of the value of obsolete technologies.
Electric guitar amps sound better when they're powered by vacuum tubes because their inaccuracies relative to the transistors that replaced them are pleasing to the ear.
Industrial chemical farming can out-perform organic farming, but it depletes soil and requires constant inputs and has distanced humans from the production of our own food.
When I put shingles on my roof, if I wanted to get it done quickly and efficiently I would have used an air-powered nail gun, but it was much more pleasant and quiet to use a hammer and nails, plus the slower pace allowed me to make sure I was doing a high-quality job.
There are clearly some benefits to a well-rounded tai chi practice that one does not get from a focused pursuit of fighting skills, but we should also not make false claims about tai chi's fighting prowess.

Referring to the fighting prowess of a style rather than an individual seems like a category error.

S

Referring to the fighting prowess of a style rather than an individual seems like a category error.

Well styles are simply training methods (information) for humans, they dont actually exist outside of the person practicing them so even refering to Styles as 'things' in and of themselves would be the first error.

However, the often rolled out line that its 'not the style its the individual' is a bit disengenuous IMO. To say that one training methods is not as useful for a given goal as another is absolutely valid.

To collapse the evidence by saying we have to focus on individuals rather than the group is akin to saying we must only consider the outlier to draw conclusions from research. It is possible to talk in generalities and still get some meaningful advice from the discussion for 'most people'.

For instance i can say that generally jumping off a 200ft cliff will kill you. Of course individuals have survived such falls ... but it doesnt make my comment any less true or practically accurate. To follow the 'its the individual' process we would have to ignor the advice to not jump off cliffs and say 'Well it depends on the individual, so go try'.

IMO
'In general, the training methodology known as MMA will produce more capable hand to hand fighters than the training methodology known as Tai Chi'
This would be an accurate statement for instance.

I say this while maintaining that the best fighter i have ever met was from the internal arts.

Joe Rogan is a strange one - he's presents himself as somebody dedicated to a life of raising the consciousness level of the human race, raising them up out of ignorance........ but all the while selling them his high performing supplements and kettlebells - lol There's this sort of weird cognitive dissonance about his whole thing.

Why does he have the same few comedians on his show time and time again? Just the ones that look up to him. Notice - he never ever has anybody on his show who is funnier than he is.

middleway wrote:

Referring to the fighting prowess of a style rather than an individual seems like a category error.

Well styles are simply training methods (information) for humans, they dont actually exist outside of the person practicing them so even refering to Styles as 'things' in and of themselves would be the first error.

However, the often rolled out line that its 'not the style its the individual' is a bit disengenuous IMO. To say that one training methods is not as useful for a given goal as another is absolutely valid.

To collapse the evidence by saying we have to focus on individuals rather than the group is akin to saying we must only consider the outlier to draw conclusions from research. It is possible to talk in generalities and still get some meaningful advice from the discussion for 'most people'.

For instance i can say that generally jumping off a 200ft cliff will kill you. Of course individuals have survived such falls ... but it doesnt make my comment any less true or practically accurate. To follow the 'its the individual' process we would have to ignor the advice to not jump off cliffs and say 'Well it depends on the individual, so go try'.

IMO
'In general, the training methodology known as MMA will produce more capable hand to hand fighters than the training methodology known as Tai Chi'
This would be an accurate statement for instance.

I say this while maintaining that the best fighter i have ever met was from the internal arts.

Are you able to tell us a bit more about this person. No names required, maybe something abut their life and training, maybe an anecdote about their skill?

I dont want to name names particularly but he is known to the board. His striking is the heaviest i have felt. For reference i have been hit by Ryabko, Morris and a fair few other 'heavy hitters'. Combined with this his extreme freedom of movement/mind and subtlty of change ... he once controlled my hands, offbalanced me while doing so, and kicked me in the throat with his toe, without telegraphing at all through the contact points.

My tuppence.

Training for self protection which brings a sense of confidence and humility is streets away from sport fighting, amateur or pro.
It seems obvious that if you are going to scrap it out with a half decent mma guy then you had better get with the programme pronto.

However on da streetz it is highly improbable that you will be assaulted relentlessly by a pro-am mma guy, more likely you will be harassed by drunks, crazy folks or youths, all of these types can be avoided or given a good go for their money with some persistent intelligent martial arts training and common sense.

Train for context..

over and out

Rich

middleway wrote:I dont want to name names particularly but he is known to the board. His striking is the heaviest i have felt. For reference i have been hit by Ryabko, Morris and a fair few other 'heavy hitters'. Combined with this his extreme freedom of movement/mind and subtlty of change ... he once controlled my hands, offbalanced me while doing so, and kicked me in the throat with his toe, without telegraphing at all through the contact points.

That's Serge Augier you're talking about!

It sure is.

middleway wrote:I dont want to name names particularly but he is known to the board. His striking is the heaviest i have felt. For reference i have been hit by Ryabko, Morris and a fair few other 'heavy hitters'. Combined with this his extreme freedom of movement/mind and subtlty of change ... he once controlled my hands, offbalanced me while doing so, and kicked me in the throat with his toe, without telegraphing at all through the contact points.

Awesome!

middleway wrote:It sure is.

I met him a few years back at a seminar and was totally blown away, yes he can hit like a tank but what was really not from this world is his ability to stealth-strike (I don't know how to call it otherwise...), he called it "tricking the eye". He had me stand with a boxer's guard and told me he would hit me in slow motion. He repeated this (slowmo hit) three times but I was unable to block it... totally surreal
Did he do this to you too? And if so, how does he do it?

haha sounds about right, It sounds like 'Capturing the Gaze' as i would call it. I have experienced many strange things touching hands with him. I wouldnt want to assume how he does any of them Suffice to say, of all the people i have met, i would want to fight him the least.

Anyways. back to the thread

middleway wrote:Anyways. back to the thread

Switching from Joe Rogan to Serge is quite the upgrade

Excuse me for the diversion, but if interested in Serge Augier's subtle skills of protection and combat his new book Urban Violence - using Mian Xiang Face Reading for \self Defence is packed full of details of how Da Xuan Daoists (who were at one time bodyguards in the Tang imperial court) read the faces, postures, body language etc of potential attackers, how to respond, escape, best way to train for real combat if need and much more. It is deep knowledge that I have not see in any books before.

Details from - www.lineofintent.com