Master Water Melon Peel

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Master Water Melon Peel

Postby Strange on Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:31 pm



"we are not training to be physically strong" :)
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:44 am

After all the bullshit on song good to see someone who gets it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby Strange on Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:59 pm

yeah, not that i do taiji
but to me this sounds like the kinda straight-talking shit that i like
Last edited by Strange on Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby windwalker on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:57 pm

wayne hansen wrote:After all the bullshit on song good to see someone who gets it


what bullshit, gets what?
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:08 pm

All the verbiage on the thread about song

It is it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby windwalker on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 pm

wayne hansen wrote:All the verbiage on the thread about song

It is it


sounds like a riddle, hope Willie doesn't see it. :P

On a site about IMA kinda seems like there would be a lot of verbiage in this medium
kinda what makes people come to read and see it...verbiage

Like this teacher, have watched him for some time.
It is interesting watching as his views seem to change and evolve.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:13 am

Strange wrote:

"we are not training to be physically strong" :)

From the OP video starting at 3:32:
Chen Zhonghua wrote:the power in tai chi is called a perceived power. It means you can feel it. It is there. But, it is not there. . . . There a lot of tricks involved. But if the tricks can be practiced to the extent they work, that is real also. So, it is real in that sense. But it is perceived in the sense in that it is not physical, you cannot test it that way. . . .

The highest level of fighting is that there is nothing to grab onto. We call this the “empty force. . . .” A handle is when you fight back. When you fight back an opponent can get a hold of your power. If you retreat, it is an empty hole, he can come in and punch you. It has to be just right. . . . In the end, there is a physical reality. But, it feels like there isn’t.


Corresponding info . . .

J Tam
Published on Nov 10, 2014

陳式太極拳實用拳法-- 理精法密 (shiyongquanfa.cn)
At a Chen-style Taijiquan Practical Method workshop in Ottawa (Oct 2014), Master Ronnie Yee explains and demonstrates how rotation and the fine adjustment of angles can lead to perceived power of roundness and peng by the opponent.
[Master Ronnie Yee (余永安) is the first indoor disciple of Chen Zhonghua Laoshi (陳中華老師) - practicalmethod.com.]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzBf1jYStU

From Perceived power, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/03/perceived-power/:
by CHEN ZHONGHUA on 2014/03/04 wrote:
Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method system produces power through many ways such as structure, angles and adherence. The result is that this type of power is perceived as real in the eyes of the opponent but not such in the eyes of the practitioner himself/herself. This type of power is called perceived power.

Perceived power is a type of indirect power.


Excerpt from Ottawa Open House and Workshop Review April, 2014, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/04/otta ... pril-2014/
MING on 2014/04/13 wrote:Indirect Power – Positive and Negative

The use of indirect power is the root of Taijiquan applications. According to Master Chen, Indirect Power can also be known as Indirect Action or “Structural Power”. According to this principle, reaction from the opponent is not due to action at the point of contact but else where. Direct power exists at the first point of contact. In Taijiquan, this point of contact represents an anchor, hook or handle where other actions can occur. A clear analogy of this concept can be seen in fishing. The fish hook catches the fish but it is the line and reel that drags the fish in. Indirect power comes in two forms, Positive and Negative.

Positive Indirect Power

In terms of Positive Indirect Power in Taijiquan, there are nine levels of holds (due to the joints existing on the human body). You can classify the levels of indirect power based on the number holds that your action has involved. For example, direct power involves only one hold (the point of contact). A first class indirect power involves two holds. A second class indirect power involves three holds. Finally, an eighth class indirect power involves all the holds (joints).

Image

Figure 1. Illustration of Positive Indirect Power

Figure 1 is an illustration of this concept. In Figure 1, the opponent is fixed in position A. He grabs an arm at point B. The points A and B creates the first hold. In normal action, the fight is on this line A-B and it is considered to be an application of direct power. Through Chen Taiji training, you will maintain the distance A-B and add the actions of the kua (Point C), this represents Level 1 indirect power. If you add the actions of the knee (Point D), you will achieve Level 2 indirect power (using three holds). By adding the actions at each joint, your opponent will feel that that is a force on A-B but this force is not due to the direct power at A-B but the indirect (structural power) created by the Chen Stylists. Conceptually, each level (addition) can be understood as an increase in distance due to the involvement of each joint. For example, for Level 1 indirect power, the increase in distance is from BC. Similarly, for Level 2 indirect power, the increase in distance is BD. The difficulty in the use of indirect power is over emphasis on direct power (moving the point of contact) and leakage (other body parts moving).

Negative Indirect Power

Negative Indirect Power requires two actions. The first action reduces the distance and the second action creates a reaction.

Image

Illustration of negative indirect power

Figure 2. Illustration of negative indirect power

Figure 2 is an illustration of negative indirect power. In Step 1, X and Z denote two points created by the Chen Stylist (X) and his opponent (Z). The distance between point X and Z is X-Z. The Chen stylist then takes the space in Y (for example, by moving a leg). The Chen stylist has reduced the distance by X-Z by the distance X-Y. In Step 2, the Chen stylist can create a reaction from his opponent based on this reduced distance. For example, the Chen stylist can extend his hand. Again, the reaction is due to structural power (through the reduced distance) rather then direct (muscle) power. The problem with using negative indirect power is that the point of contact must not move. The opponent should always feel that he is still in control.

Indirect Power according to Master Hong

Master Chen once told us this story about indirect power and now I finally understand its meaning. Master Hong was training at his usual spot. Close by, some young muscular young men were playing basketball. During a break, one of those young man came over and asked Master Hong what he was doing and how useful was his “quan”. Master Hong points to a big rock and tells the young man to move it over to Master Hong’s position and then he will answer his question. The young man dutifully picked up the rock and moved it over to the feet of Master Hong. Master Hong then replied “This is my quan – moving the rock from there to here”. I did not get it when I first heard the story but now I see how it illustrates perfectly the concept of indirect power!


Indirect Power in Taijiquan (Trailer)

Practicalmethod
Published on Dec 6, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3WGMYSbic
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Strange wrote:

"we are not training to be physically strong" :)


As usual, I agree with what Master Chen is saying regarding the goal of Taiji training and where the art derives its power from.

But I also wonder how he feels about IMA methods that focus on both external and internal development (i.e., to become both physically AND internally strong.)


By all accounts, we know that many IMA masters of the past were also capable of impressive feats of strength as opposed to being weak and frail. Take Chen Fake as an example, he was known to train using heavy weapons and, according to Hung Junshen, once grabbed and lifted a student who weighed over 100 kgs over his head with ease.
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:23 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
But I also wonder how he feels about IMA methods that focus on both external and internal development (i.e., to become both physically AND internally strong.)


By all accounts, we know that many IMA masters of the past were also capable of impressive feats of strength as opposed to being weak and frail. Take Chen Fake as an example, he was known to train using heavy weapons and, according to Hung Junshen, once grabbed and lifted a student who weighed over 100 kgs over his head with ease.


Your assumption seems to be that that it does not take strength to be able to do some of the things shown.
The question might better be what kind and type.

Some of the teachers that I've met, can toss people quite far, they make a point of showing that they physically can not do it. When they do it, those tossed do not feel the application of "power" at the point of contact only that they get tossed. Most of those physically strong could not do the type of movements and postures that the old guys practiced....different type of strength, used for different reasons.

Hung Junshen, once grabbed and lifted a student who weighed over 100 kgs over his head with ease

Does not mention how it was done. ;) As far as "heavy" weapons they still have to deal with the mass of the weapon among other things. They might have used them to "train" with with....fighting with them, of the real weapons I've seen none were beyond what most would consider normal in weight.

Image

My friend a chinese sword collector, some the weapons he collected

Image
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby Strange on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:31 pm

well, Old Master Wang was a person of smaller stature
my teacher told me he once lifted a student from behind, between the legs,
using his leg alone, to correct his zz stance

and don't get me going on what Divine Spear Li could do with his spear
...he spars with his student with his spear tucked in his belt and held at the end with one hand
AND get them every time

that would have been a sight to see heh
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:43 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Strange wrote:
"we are not training to be physically strong" :)

From the OP video starting at 3:32:
Chen Zhonghua wrote:the power in tai chi is called a perceived power. It means you can feel it. It is there. But, it is not there. . . . There a lot of tricks involved. But if the tricks can be practiced to the extent they work, that is real also. So, it is real in that sense. But it is perceived in the sense in that it is not physical, you cannot test it that way. . . .

The highest level of fighting is that there is nothing to grab onto. We call this the “empty force. . . .” A handle is when you fight back. When you fight back an opponent can get a hold of your power. If you retreat, it is an empty hole, he can come in and punch you. It has to be just right. . . . In the end, there is a physical reality. But, it feels like there isn’t.


Corresponding info . . .

J Tam
Published on Nov 10, 2014

陳式太極拳實用拳法-- 理精法密 (shiyongquanfa.cn)
At a Chen-style Taijiquan Practical Method workshop in Ottawa (Oct 2014), Master Ronnie Yee explains and demonstrates how rotation and the fine adjustment of angles can lead to perceived power of roundness and peng by the opponent.
[Master Ronnie Yee (余永安) is the first indoor disciple of Chen Zhonghua Laoshi (陳中華老師) - practicalmethod.com.]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzBf1jYStU

From Perceived power, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/03/perceived-power/:
by CHEN ZHONGHUA on 2014/03/04 wrote:
Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method system produces power through many ways such as structure, angles and adherence. The result is that this type of power is perceived as real in the eyes of the opponent but not such in the eyes of the practitioner himself/herself. This type of power is called perceived power.

Perceived power is a type of indirect power.


Excerpt from Ottawa Open House and Workshop Review April, 2014, http://practicalmethod.com/2014/04/otta ... pril-2014/
MING on 2014/04/13 wrote:Indirect Power – Positive and Negative

The use of indirect power is the root of Taijiquan applications. According to Master Chen, Indirect Power can also be known as Indirect Action or “Structural Power”. According to this principle, reaction from the opponent is not due to action at the point of contact but else where. Direct power exists at the first point of contact. In Taijiquan, this point of contact represents an anchor, hook or handle where other actions can occur. A clear analogy of this concept can be seen in fishing. The fish hook catches the fish but it is the line and reel that drags the fish in. Indirect power comes in two forms, Positive and Negative.

Positive Indirect Power

In terms of Positive Indirect Power in Taijiquan, there are nine levels of holds (due to the joints existing on the human body). You can classify the levels of indirect power based on the number holds that your action has involved. For example, direct power involves only one hold (the point of contact). A first class indirect power involves two holds. A second class indirect power involves three holds. Finally, an eighth class indirect power involves all the holds (joints).

Image

Figure 1. Illustration of Positive Indirect Power

Figure 1 is an illustration of this concept. In Figure 1, the opponent is fixed in position A. He grabs an arm at point B. The points A and B creates the first hold. In normal action, the fight is on this line A-B and it is considered to be an application of direct power. Through Chen Taiji training, you will maintain the distance A-B and add the actions of the kua (Point C), this represents Level 1 indirect power. If you add the actions of the knee (Point D), you will achieve Level 2 indirect power (using three holds). By adding the actions at each joint, your opponent will feel that that is a force on A-B but this force is not due to the direct power at A-B but the indirect (structural power) created by the Chen Stylists. Conceptually, each level (addition) can be understood as an increase in distance due to the involvement of each joint. For example, for Level 1 indirect power, the increase in distance is from BC. Similarly, for Level 2 indirect power, the increase in distance is BD. The difficulty in the use of indirect power is over emphasis on direct power (moving the point of contact) and leakage (other body parts moving).

Negative Indirect Power

Negative Indirect Power requires two actions. The first action reduces the distance and the second action creates a reaction.

Image

Illustration of negative indirect power

Figure 2. Illustration of negative indirect power

Figure 2 is an illustration of negative indirect power. In Step 1, X and Z denote two points created by the Chen Stylist (X) and his opponent (Z). The distance between point X and Z is X-Z. The Chen stylist then takes the space in Y (for example, by moving a leg). The Chen stylist has reduced the distance by X-Z by the distance X-Y. In Step 2, the Chen stylist can create a reaction from his opponent based on this reduced distance. For example, the Chen stylist can extend his hand. Again, the reaction is due to structural power (through the reduced distance) rather then direct (muscle) power. The problem with using negative indirect power is that the point of contact must not move. The opponent should always feel that he is still in control.

Indirect Power according to Master Hong

Master Chen once told us this story about indirect power and now I finally understand its meaning. Master Hong was training at his usual spot. Close by, some young muscular young men were playing basketball. During a break, one of those young man came over and asked Master Hong what he was doing and how useful was his “quan”. Master Hong points to a big rock and tells the young man to move it over to Master Hong’s position and then he will answer his question. The young man dutifully picked up the rock and moved it over to the feet of Master Hong. Master Hong then replied “This is my quan – moving the rock from there to here”. I did not get it when I first heard the story but now I see how it illustrates perfectly the concept of indirect power!


Indirect Power in Taijiquan (Trailer)

Practicalmethod
Published on Dec 6, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3WGMYSbic


It would be more clear if they just explained their concepts using basic physics. Of course physics can only account for what is happening and how, but not what is felt and why its reacted to. As in moving the rock story,,,, ;)
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Re: Master Water Melon Peel

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:49 pm

Strange wrote:well, Old Master Wang was a person of smaller stature
my teacher told me he once lifted a student from behind, between the legs,
using his leg alone, to correct his zz stance

and don't get me going on what Divine Spear Li could do with his spear
...he spars with his student with his spear tucked in his belt and held at the end with one hand
AND get them every time

that would have been a sight to see heh


Kind of the point. If one saw it, would it be more clear or explainable.
As I've mentioned all things one can agree on, until its "shown" then its :o

As to the spear, not doubting the teaches skill. What kind of skill was it,
who did he use it against ect. All things that should be considered in some of the old stories.
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