Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:37 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:The fight video you posted twice shows Chris Chan's students' "stances" with their foot turned inwards for defense. They fought well and did not fall over.

I did say his style of wing chun, was a little different then some of the others.
Can you elaborate on how willie's statements on "stances and postitining has been shown to be time and time again true?"

I agree with Willie, although we might not use the same verbiage. It was one of the first things I noted in watching the match
the set up, and how each fighter positioned themselves. The MMA guy could have ended any time he wanted to...Each of us will tend to see
things based on our own experiences and training. I don't quite understand why some feel the WC had a strong position, but can accept that some might feel
it was strong.... :-\

You misquoted what you said and left out a statement. Chris Chan's students' "stances" disproves willie's statement.
windwalker wrote:. . . What Willie mentioned concerning stances and postitining has been shown to be time and time again true. In both cases the Taiji guy and the Wing Chun guy in fighting Xu, it was over before it started. I look at centering, weighting, among other things.

. . . Chris Chan, and his students if one looks at his stances and set ups compared to other wc styles they'er a little different, and are field tested...

You said "Chris Chan, and his students stances are field tested," while their foot was turned inwards, in your video.

So, do you believe one can turn their foot inwards without falling over or one will fall over (crumble) as willie implied?
marvin8 wrote:The fight video you posted twice shows Chris Chan's students' "stances" with their foot turned inwards for defense. They fought well and did not fall over.

Can you elaborate on how willie's statements on "stances and postitining has been shown to be time and time again true?"
willie wrote:
middleway wrote:In the face of movement and footwork like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qLrE5G1k5U

What does static foot position or 'splitting intent' actually matter.

Okay let's say that you hop on a 10-speed and you intended to go straight as soon as you got on the bike but you didn't notice that the front wheel was crooked by 20 degrees and so you fell over the handlebars when you tried to take off fast. You intended to go straight but the wheel was crooked.
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:24 am

Strange wrote:for that i shall need to trouble you to come to singapore
if and when you swing by, let me know
all this talk, bro, it's very cheap
cheers :)

I'm sorry strange, but the only real cheap talk is coming from your end. I'm talking about physics.
You called me out with your rude comments, but that's okay I don't mind strong personalities. The question is do you have the right information or not?
Your failure to answer a direct question which to me was a very rudimentary one already sealed your fate in this conversation. Then you try to hit me with the oh you don't speak Chinese or o you don't have any Chinese culture so you couldn't understand and all your other BS comments
Last edited by willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby Strange on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:42 am

hee hee hee
i talking to little boy
so cute :D
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:54 am

marvin8 wrote:Okay let's say that you hop on a 10-speed and you intended to go straight as soon as you got on the bike but you didn't notice that the front wheel was crooked by 20 degrees and so you fell over the handlebars when you tried to take off fast. You intended to go straight but the wheel was crooked.

Marvin it's just an analogy that is used to try to help people understand something that really can't be talked about over the net.
There is a saying in taiji that the form seeks to correct itself. While this is true, sometimes it takes to help of someone like my Grandmaster to just walk by and casually say "you would get more power if you turn your foot a little"or " your stance would feel more natural with your foot pointing straight". Now imagine if I acted so rudely to my Grandmaster who is seeking to improve my skills what his response would be. How this turned into such a heated argument over such a small casual comment is beyond my understanding. So the help clarify this misunderstanding I have to use the word "casual" because I also at times use an inward front foot, just not in that situation. However that backward leaning Stance cannot be geometrically triangulated.
Last edited by willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:55 am

Strange wrote:hee hee hee
i talking to little boy
so cute :D

Are you sure?
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby RobP3 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:02 am

willie wrote:. Okay, so it appears that some people may be questioning or offended over what I think to be sound advice about positioning and stances. So what I've decided to do is instead of answering the very technical questions "that I actually know the answer too", instead I'm going to request that Marvin8, strange, Rob or anyone else to provide me with the exact geometry necessary to vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization? Please be specific about all the tangent points that are necessary. I think it's only fair. Oh and hey, when you know the answer don't be afraid just shout it out...
Thank You


Well it depends first whether or not you want to "vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization." We tend not to do that, as it sticks the foot to the ground. Instead we tend to absorb force through softness, body rotation, spirals, footwork/movement or, in some case, bounce it back out. That allows us to continue moving.

But, "grounding" incoming force is possible with pretty much any stance. Your basic 70-30 forward stance, for example. Get into "push" posture, have someone apply pressure on your hands, it's easy enough to ground the force, in a static position. Basic triangulation.
Last edited by RobP3 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:20 am

RobP3 wrote:
willie wrote:. Okay, so it appears that some people may be questioning or offended over what I think to be sound advice about positioning and stances. So what I've decided to do is instead of answering the very technical questions "that I actually know the answer too", instead I'm going to request that Marvin8, strange, Rob or anyone else to provide me with the exact geometry necessary to vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization? Please be specific about all the tangent points that are necessary. I think it's only fair. Oh and hey, when you know the answer don't be afraid just shout it out...
Thank You


Well it depends first whether or not you want to "vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization." We tend not to do that, as it sticks the foot to the ground. Instead we tend to absorbforce through softness, body rotation, spirals, footwork/movement or, in some case, bounce it back out. That allows us to continue moving.

But, "grounding" incoming force is possible with pretty much any stance. Your basic 70-30 forward stance, for example. Get into "push" posture, have someone apply pressure on your hands, it's easy enough to ground the force, in a static position. Basic triangulation.

Hi Rob what is actually pretty cool is that I have a pretty good understanding of both of the approaches that you spoke of.
But what is really going on is something a bit more than just a simple triangulation of a 70/30 forward-leaning Stance.
That would be like stage 1. Then it seeks further complexities that are not so easily recognized. In fact the geometrical framework becomes so advanced that even a person with very Advanced understanding of mechanics will not be able to see it unless somebody who knows it points directly to it and even then the comprehension is a bit too much for the normal individual. But I appreciate the fact that you took the time to speak in a technical manner thank you
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby RobP3 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:30 am

willie wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
willie wrote:. Okay, so it appears that some people may be questioning or offended over what I think to be sound advice about positioning and stances. So what I've decided to do is instead of answering the very technical questions "that I actually know the answer too", instead I'm going to request that Marvin8, strange, Rob or anyone else to provide me with the exact geometry necessary to vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization? Please be specific about all the tangent points that are necessary. I think it's only fair. Oh and hey, when you know the answer don't be afraid just shout it out...
Thank You


Well it depends first whether or not you want to "vector incoming forces into the ground for the purpose of neutralization." We tend not to do that, as it sticks the foot to the ground. Instead we tend to absorbforce through softness, body rotation, spirals, footwork/movement or, in some case, bounce it back out. That allows us to continue moving.

But, "grounding" incoming force is possible with pretty much any stance. Your basic 70-30 forward stance, for example. Get into "push" posture, have someone apply pressure on your hands, it's easy enough to ground the force, in a static position. Basic triangulation.

Hi Rob what is actually pretty cool is that I have a pretty good understanding of both of the approaches that you spoke of.
But what is really going on is something a bit more than just a simple triangulation of a 70/30 forward-leaning Stance.
That would be like stage 1. Then it seeks further complexities that are not so easily recognized. In fact the geometrical framework becomes so advanced that even a person with very Advanced understanding of mechanics will not be able to see it unless somebody who knows it points directly to it and even then the comprehension is a bit too much for the normal individual. But I appreciate the fact that you took the time to speak in a technical manner thank you


Thanks Willie, but see, there it is again, the good ole "you aren't high enough level to understand it". Meanwhile, people keep getting punched in the face. :)
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:40 am

RobP3 wrote:
Thanks Willie, but see, there it is again, the good ole "you aren't high enough level to understand it". Meanwhile, people keep getting punched in the face. :)

Rob I understand exactly what you're saying and I can relate to it, but as I had already said can we get it right before we get stupid?
I have been in the martial arts for a very long time Rob as I'm sure you have been. I actually have never even imagined some of the complexities that are involved in Chen Style and even after being shown them, it is a gigantic leap to be able to actually do them.
This is one of the reasons why I posted the video of Tank Abbott. Tank Abbott was just a very very powerful dude who was not afraid to attack anyone. He had Incredible strength and power. But here's the problem. Not everybody has the same fortitude or the same amount of power as he did so some people need to be smarter in order to survive the more powerful opponent.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby RobP3 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:42 am

willie wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
Thanks Willie, but see, there it is again, the good ole "you aren't high enough level to understand it". Meanwhile, people keep getting punched in the face. :)

Rob I understand exactly what you're saying and I can relate to it, but as I had already said can we get it right before we get stupid?
I have been in the martial arts for a very long time Rob as I'm sure you have been. I actually have never even imagined some of the complexities that are involved in Chen Style and even after being shown them, it is a gigantic leap to be able to actually do them.
This is one of the reasons why I posted the video of Tank Abbott. Tank Abbott was just a very very powerful dude who was not afraid to attack anyone. He had Incredible strength and power. But here's the problem. Not everybody has the same fortitude or the same amount of power as he did so some people need to be smarter in order to survive the more powerful opponent.


I agree about being smart and training smart, though my own understanding of that is smart = simple (not necessarily easy!).

Personally I see things like the complexity of Chen style as a barrier rather than an opportunity. But each to their own, it would be boring if we agreed all the time :)
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:11 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:So, do you believe one can turn their foot inwards without falling over or one will fall over (crumble) as willie implied?


Plum flower mantis, has stances were the foot is turned in.

Image
http://www.chinamantis.com/new-page-26.htm

Per willie's statements, this is a week stance as the foot should be pointing straight towards the opponent.

As you stated, you are in agreement with willie. Is your opinion this is a weak stance?
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:10 pm

marvin8 wrote:
As you stated, you are in agreement with willie. Is your opinion this is a weak stance?
Marvin8, Can I inquire as to where you actually received your internal martial art training?
Last edited by willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:30 pm

willie wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
As you stated, you are in agreement with willie. Is your opinion this is a weak stance?
Marvin8, Can I inquire as to where you actually received your internal martial art training?

I received my "internal martial art training" from the Lee Association in Yang tai chi.

"Can I inquire as to where you actually received your" wing chun "training?" Actually, I don't think it is relevant in order to give an opinion on the Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun video. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

My question on weak stance was not directed towards you. I was trying to get a better understanding of windwalker's statements, video, and picture he posted:
windwalker wrote: . . What Willie mentioned concerning stances and postitining has been shown to be time and time again true. In both cases the Taiji guy and the Wing Chun guy in fighting Xu, it was over before it started. I look at centering, weighting, among other things.

. . . Chris Chan, and his students if one looks at his stances and set ups compared to other wc styles they'er a little different, and are field tested...

. . . Plum flower mantis, has stances were the foot is turned in.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:36 pm

marvin8 wrote:
willie wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
As you stated, you are in agreement with willie. Is your opinion this is a weak stance?
Marvin8, Can I inquire as to where you actually received your internal martial art training?

I received my "internal martial art training" from the Lee Association in Yang tai chi.

"Can I inquire as to where you actually received your" wing chun "training?" Actually, I don't think it is relevant in order to give an opinion on

Really? Because going by your post it seems that you don't know anything about internal martial art at all. And no you can't inquire.
Last edited by willie on Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xu Xiao Dong is back vs Wing Chun

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:03 pm

Is the lee association that of chee soo
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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