Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:21 am

yes i see you have very good analogy :D
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:20 am

I remember seeing that footage a long time ago (pre-internet days). If I recall correctly, there was no challenge involved - it was about setting up the choreography for a fight scene.

On the other hand, reliable witnesses reported that Bruce Lee once picked a fight with Gene Lebell on set, and Lebell basically tied him up like a pretzel (Lebell and Lee were, however, close friends). Still, this is what Lebell had to say a few years ago

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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:21 am

kenneth fish wrote:I remember seeing that footage a long time ago (pre-internet days). If I recall correctly, there was no challenge involved - it was about setting up the choreography for a fight scene.

Are you referring to the extra fight or Bob Wall sparring?

Excerpt from Bob Wall Interview , http://www.bruceleeonline.com/bob-wall-interview/:
Jeff Bona wrote:BW: The only film I know of that was shot of Bruce Lee was shot by Ahna Capri, on the set of ETD. In it we sparred for about 10 minutes.

JB: Oh really? This hasn’t been released to the public, I take it?

BW: Well she’s got a problem. I had offered her a pretty good chunk of money so that Freddy Weintraub could put it in “Curse of the Dragon” and she turned him down. But she can’t sell because she has to have releases. She can sell it to a private collector but she want 65 grand for it. Its not worth 65 grand. Its about 12 minutes of film and about 5 minutes of Bruce, us sparring….


kenneth fish wrote:On the other hand, reliable witnesses reported that Bruce Lee once picked a fight with Gene Lebell on set, and Lebell basically tied him up like a pretzel (Lebell and Lee were, however, close friends). Still, this is what Lebell had to say a few years ago


This interview was done in 2012, when Ronda was undefeated and Gene was her coach and "uncle." Since then Ronda has been KO'd and TKO'd by Holm and Nunes. The blueprint to beat Ronda in MMA is already out. After that, Ronda signs with WWE.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:38 am

Bhassler wrote:
marvin8 wrote:On the same set Bruce did prove he could "fight" in front of witnesses.
Beerdy - Bruce Lee Central on Sep 14, 2017 wrote:On the set of Enter The Dragon a bunch of guys wanted to challenge Bruce Lee to a fight, this is very common in chinese culture, to challenge the leader or the one considered to be the best. And if you win the challenge, you are now considered to be the best, so you can imagine how many wanted to beat Bruce Lee himself, and you can imagine the legend staus you would recieve if you beat him. But of course, it's easier said than done, as this extra experienced. Throughout Bruce Lee's life he's been challenged like this, and he never lost a fight:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th-R3As8XUM


Again, that's not a fight-- the only thing it proves (if true) is that Bruce could win a dick measuring contest. It's been a couple of decades since I read it, but I think it was in Jacky Chan's biography where he recounted the same incident as Bruce proving himself to the stuntmen by kicking a pad and launching them back several feet. Whether Jacky's ghostwriter cleaned it up for American family sensibilities or whether the BBC guy's source embellished the incident, we may never know. Or at least, I may never know, because it doesn't relate to anything one way or the other and I can't be bothered to research it further. Trading kicks may show a skill in the same way that push hands can show a skill, but not too many folks nowadays believe that push hands is enough to make one a competent fighter. . . .

Not saying Bruce wasn't good or couldn't fight or anything else, just pointing out some glaring deficiencies in the so-called "evidence" of Bruce's prowess.

It works both ways with haters trying to disprove "Bruce's prowess," with "glaring" deficient evidence.

There were many who witnessed the extra taunting fight including, Bob Wall John Saxon, Dave Friedman (photographer), and Bolo Yeung.

Here are their comments.

Excerpt from Bruce Lee Fight History, https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brucele ... t3523.html:
NDoraku on 01 Dec 2015 wrote:
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and co-star in "Enter the Dragon", recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter." Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "damned good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[31]

"This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[32] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly." — Bob Wall[33]


Excerpt from Question and Answer with John Saxon 'Enter the Dragon,' http://littledragon.builtfree.org/saxon.html:
John Saxon wrote:I saw a young extra sitting on a wall, loudly address Bruce in Cantonese. I don't know exactly what he said, but I gathered it was something like: 'You're just an actor, for the Movies' Bruce beckoned to him to come down off the wall. The kid foolishly did, and like Humpty-Dumpty quickly received a lightning crack to his face, and fell to his knees.

Excerpt from Dave Friedman: Filming the Dragon, https://www.bandwmag.com/articles/dave- ... the-dragon:
Dave Freidman wrote:It all went down in Chinese. We were on our way to lunch, and some guy got egged on by his friends to challenge Bruce. Big mistake. Whatever he said pulled a trigger. I had seen Bruce challenged over the years, kind of like the old gunfighter being challenged by some young punk who thinks he’s faster. This time Bruce did one swift kick and the guy’s teeth went flying and the fight was over.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MARzZ3ltY3o


Some photos of the extra fight (one or more by witness/photographer Dave Freidman).

Image

Image

Image

Image

Photos of extra fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7zmbjZ0UQM
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Bhassler on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:05 am

It works both ways with haters trying to disprove "Bruce's prowess," with "glaring" deficient evidence.


I realize you may be speaking in generalities, but since you quoted my post, I'd like to point out that I never said Bruce couldn't fight, I'm just pointing out that the so-called evidence is inconclusive. The extensive quotes from people who were on set are more compelling, but the photos you posted of the alleged challenge don't match the stories of a lightning fast kick followed by blood and teeth coming out of the opponent's mouth, so rather than proving the point that Bruce could fight, it just raises more questions. The question of whether or not a given set of evidence proves something is not the same as the question of whether or not something is true.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:57 pm

Marvin8: The film from the OP. I recall seeing it as part of a collection of "behind the scenes" and "out-takes" footage.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:07 pm

kenneth fish wrote:Marvin8: The film from the OP. I recall seeing it as part of a collection of "behind the scenes" and "out-takes" footage.

You are right. It's the fault of the publisher for titling it, Actor Challenging Bruce Lee On Film Set. He corrected himself in the comments section:
marvin8 wrote:Here is a what the publisher stated in the comments section:
Beerdy - Bruce Lee Central 2 months ago wrote:Yeah yeah, I know he wasn't actually challenging Bruce. But he was arguing with him regarding what kind of distance to use for the scene. He was claiming that Bruce was too far away from him, but as you can see Bruce taught him a LESSON in martial arts. Never question the boss baby. That kick would have sent him to the hospital, or worse.


Bhassler wrote:
marvin8 wrote:It works both ways with haters trying to disprove "Bruce's prowess," with "glaring" deficient evidence.


I realize you may be speaking in generalities, but since you quoted my post, I'd like to point out that I never said Bruce couldn't fight, I'm just pointing out that the so-called evidence is inconclusive.

The extensive quotes from people who were on set are more compelling, but the photos you posted of the alleged challenge don't match the stories of a lightning fast kick followed by blood and teeth coming out of the opponent's mouth, so rather than proving the point that Bruce could fight, it just raises more questions.

The question of whether or not a given set of evidence proves something is not the same as the question of whether or not something is true.

I stated, "On the same set Bruce did prove he could "fight" in front of witnesses" and posted a video.

You replied, "that's not a fight." Your questionable evidence was:
Bhassler wrote:Again, that's not a fight-- the only thing it proves (if true) is that Bruce could win a dick measuring contest. It's been a couple of decades since I read it, but I think it was in Jacky Chan's biography where he recounted the same incident as Bruce proving himself to the stuntmen by kicking a pad and launching them back several feet. Whether Jacky's ghostwriter cleaned it up for American family sensibilities or whether the BBC guy's source embellished the incident, we may never know. Or at least, I may never know, because it doesn't relate to anything one way or the other and I can't be bothered to research it further. Trading kicks may show a skill in the same way that push hands can show a skill, but not too many folks nowadays believe that push hands is enough to make one a competent fighter.

Then, I provided evidence: witness video & statements and photos that prove 1) there was a fight and 2) Bruce can fight, since he won.

Actually, I think there were a couple Bruce vs extras fights on set. That's why some details may differ depending on which fight.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Bhassler on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:15 pm

If you think any videos posted on this thread constitute a fight, then you and I have very different ideas of what a fight is. The closest thing was a fully padded sparring match.

If you think that any of the arguments presented here "prove" that Bruce Lee could fight, then you and I have very different ideas of what logic and reason are.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:24 pm

Bhassler wrote:If you think any videos posted on this thread constitute a fight, then you and I have very different ideas of what a fight is. The closest thing was a fully padded sparring match.

If you think that any of the arguments presented here "prove" that Bruce Lee could fight, then you and I have very different ideas of what logic and reason are.

Not fight video. Witness video statement (Bolo Yeung), statements and photos of the actual fight were posted.
marvin8 wrote:Then, I provided evidence: witness video & statements and photos that prove 1) there was a fight and 2) Bruce can fight, since he won.
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:42 pm

re sparring with the hands down
martial artists who know about different mas know that there are about 1001 ways
to chinna/trap/lock/break the various joints in the hand and arm
and that stuff is really not funny... if you understand what i'mma saying
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby P. Li on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:49 pm

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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:56 pm

Strange wrote:re sparring with the hands down
martial artists who know about different mas know that there are about 1001 ways
to chinna/trap/lock/break the various joints in the hand and arm
and that stuff is really not funny... if you understand what i'mma saying

@ 1:39, Dan explains Bruce's dropping his right hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZRXBFbm-Hw&t=1m39s

@ 5:20 Bruce would not fight like in his movies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MCg5snlNE&t=5m20s
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:51 pm

Strange wrote:that hand feint controlled the mind of the opponent like
a invisible puppet string


Strange wrote:re sparring with the hands down
martial artists who know about different mas know that there are about 1001 ways
to chinna/trap/lock/break the various joints in the hand and arm
and that stuff is really not funny... if you understand what i'mma saying


Hand feints are common techniques found in just about all MA and combat sport styles one can think of, including grappling arts. Feint high and kick low is also a very basic fighting principle taught to beginners in sparring practice. Even the Karate guys in the 1960s Karate tournament clip I posted were already using them, so it's fair to say that there's nothing special or novel about them -- not even 50 years ago before Bruce became famous.

Keeping the hands up or down in sparring/fighting is a matter of personal style, and to say that keeping the hands up runs the risk of being joint-locked in a fight is, IMO, only plausible when there's a significant difference between the two fighters' skill level. If both sides are equally matched and have good evasive footwork, it will be difficult to even land punches and kicks, let alone having the opportunity to grab the arms and hands for joint locks.

But in light of the recent series of TCMA vs. MMA/Sanda challenge matches coming out of China, I'm of the opinion that when going up against trained modern fighters who favor rapid violent head strikes, TCMAists should worry more about how to raise the guard and protect the head as opposed to keeping the hands down in fear of being joint-locked. Different priorities against different fighting styles, that's all.







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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby Strange on Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:36 pm

when i first started to learn driving;
my instructor told me that the first thing in driving is to keep in your lane

when i start to learn ma;
one of the first thing my teacher told me is "快打慢" or "fast hit slow"
principle is easy to understand, clear as daylight

correct me if i am wrong, you vid post seems to show somehow that
tcma to be inferior; i am not sure what ppl are teaching and what their
respective student are learning.
but the first principle is "fast hit slow"

again, correct me if i am wrong:
you mentioned "pattycake", "showing the judge how fast i can strike", etc
this is not wrong; but perhaps you find their moves laughable due to the pull back action
and/or that nobody seems to be hurt.
this does not mean "fast hit slow" is not correct
this means that "fast hit slow", penetrative power is given
what rules and format others adopt, we do not know
tcma teaches to hit vital points, you talk to me about rules, i give you a polite smile

it is true when you say that it is difficult to land punches, let alone grab arms and lock
again we come back to first principle of "fast hit slow"
meaning you must be faster or you get hit
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Re: Many Do Not Believe Bruce Lee Can Fight

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:51 am

C.J.W. wrote:But in light of the recent series of TCMA vs. MMA/Sanda challenge matches coming out of China, I'm of the opinion that when going up against trained modern fighters who favor rapid violent head strikes, TCMAists should worry more about how to raise the guard and protect the head as opposed to keeping the hands down in fear of being joint-locked. Different priorities against different fighting styles, that's all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58StUY3ZHks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTW5DvyAxAw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CmdTcenk7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e79Gj2ZGc-Y

These fighters have more problems than just keeping their hands down within range of a punch or kick. There are advantages to strategically extending the arm.

Here is Bruce sparring. He did not always keep his hand down. Bruce understands distance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5KBnA-2NBg
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