37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby Trick on Fri May 11, 2018 10:21 pm

Then I take it that Huangs spear, staff and sabre forms follow the "usual" Yang family forms and are not adaptions from other CMA's such as the Fujian White crane
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby Trick on Fri May 11, 2018 10:21 pm

Then I take it that Huangs spear, staff and sabre forms follow the "usual" Yang family forms and are not adaptions from other CMA's such as the Fujian White crane
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby Trick on Fri May 11, 2018 10:37 pm

To my surprise I read on the Wiki that ZMQ taught at a military academy while his stay in Sichuan province, I have not heard that before, but if he taught at such a facility his Taijiquan must have been more combat oriented focusing more on partner exercises/sparring there?
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 11, 2018 11:51 pm

No they don't I was using him as an example of someone who's students don't follow his full curriculum
His knife and sword are a mix of yang/Wu
His spear is the 37 step
I don't know where his double ended pole comes from but it is a beautiful form
The long pole and walking stick are the double ended pole reengineered
The fact that CMC taught at the military academy says little about combat many of the appointments were political
What says more about his fighting prowess is the fighters who became his students
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby C.J.W. on Sat May 12, 2018 6:19 pm

CMC's prowess as a fighter was...debatable. The main reason he managed to establish himself as the premier Taiji master in Taiwan was due to his close connections with Chiang Kaishek through Madame Song as her art teacher. At a time when Chiang ruled the country in ways not unlike Kim Jong-un in North Korea now, it basically made CMC untouchable. (Although there are still a few stories circling around of people who mopped the floor with him in private.) He also never spent much time learning from Yang Chengfu, and got most of his Taiji from another lessor known (but highly skilled) Taiji master called Ye Dami 葉大密, whom he trained under for 8 years while in Shanghai.

The fact that CMC had numerous students who were already well-versed in other styles, such as Huang Sheng Shyan (Fujian White Crane) and Tao Bingxiang (Liuhebafa, XY/BG), may say something about his fighting prowess, but it also may be largely for political purposes. Being an indoor disciple of a famous and well-connected teacher can come in very handy sometimes. ;)

My grand teacher in White Crane was Huang Sheng Shyan's elder Kung-Fu brother back in Fujian, China who later also immigrated to Taiwan. My WC teacher, who is over 100 years old now, hails from Fujian as well and knew Huang personally as a fellow "homeboy." And my maternal grandfather, uncle, and mother were all Taiji students of two of CMC's disciples (Wu Guozhong and Gan Xiaozhou) in Taipei from the mid-1960s to early 70s. So the information I mentioned above pretty much came straight from the horse's mouth.

Just stating the facts. No judgments.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Cheng didn't train with them
They trained with him
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 2:27 am

Blast from the past,,,,lots of info with the usual ending of most threads :P
still some useful info. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23277&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90

He also trained with other noted people of the day

"After Zhang Qinlin arrived in Shanghai he said to Zheng (Cheng Man-Ching), "You already know taijiquan, so we are not going to work on that. Because you are so interested in push hands, we will concentrate on that."

For about three months, Zhang Laoshi lived and worked with Zheng Manqing (Cheng Man-Ching). Some people say that Zhang Laoshi stayed with Zheng Manqing (Cheng Man-Ching) for three years, but it is not true - it was about three months. So, of course, Zheng Manqing (Cheng Man-Ching) did not learn Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan. " viewtopic.php?p=391633


Champion Boxer Kuo Chin-Fong (郭琴舫) was one of the Professor’s senior students and a regular visitor to the house. He loved the soft looseness of T’ai Chi which made it easy for him to yield and followed with a quick jab. It was like the T’ai Chi story of the “Snake overpowered the Crane”.

I like his idea of practical fighting training with boxing gloves. I was very pleased that he offered his top student as my training partner. Without the Champ’s guidance and the training with his top student, it would have been difficult to win the second place in the competition in 1958.
... ~ http://www.williamccchen.com/biograph.htm


Nigel Sutton's article 1994 http://www.zhong-ding.com/index.php/articles

"The first two teachers to bring Cheng style Tai Chi to the region were Huang Hsing Hsien and Yue Shu Ting who had both come from China via Taiwan. In pro-Communist China they had both served as Guomindang officials and it was Yue who took Huang to meet Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan.

Both Yue and Huang had originally studied Shaolin arts and owed their faith in Tai Chi to having been bested by Cheng in challenges, Huang was the first to arrive and he settled in Singapore, while Yue arriving a year later, started teaching in Penang in the north.

Both teachers established their reputation not by extolling the health benefits of the art, nor by engaging in intellectual discussion, but by convincing the local martial artists that Tai Chi was a viable and effective art.

CMC bested these two guys. :)



" It is worth noting that nearly all of Yue's leading students came from a background in other arts and all gave them up to practise Tai Chi." "

Something I noted with many of the students who stayed to study from my teacher in Beijing many of them quite good at what they used to practice giving it up for the most part after meeting my teacher...I found the interesting part was when they would talk about what they thought was going on each from the perspective of their back grounds. My teacher was not into explaining things other then answering questions by physically doing it allowing the questioner to feel the answer... and go practice to figure it out. :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 2:43 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby Trick on Sun May 13, 2018 2:40 am

About ZMQ's pugilistic skill we may never know so yes it could be debatable but so could many other Gongfu masters skill also be debatable there simply aren't any really reliable records...But isn't it in Smith's "Master&Methods" book where it says that there was a planed challenge fight between ZMQ and Wan Laisheng? ...I think it's true that ZMQ did not study at length with YCF but still got the full transmission when it comes to TJQ, but Taijisword and maybe other weapon I guess he learned from other disciples of YCF....Some time ago I read about YeDami and that he was the initial teacher of ZMQ. YeDami's fighting skills could probably also be up for debate, as I read that when he was to open his MAschool he took help from one of Sun Lutang's sons to take care of any potential trouble makers that could show up....
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 2:55 am

Trick wrote:About ZMQ's pugilistic skill we may never know so yes it could be debatable but so could many other Gongfu masters skill also be debatable there simply aren't any really reliable records...But isn't it in Smith's "Master&Methods" book where it says that there was a planed challenge fight between ZMQ and Wan Laisheng? ...I think it's true that ZMQ did not study at length with YCF but still got the full transmission when it comes to TJQ, but Taijisword interesting that you should mention this. Was just reading some accounts of it. and maybe other weapon I guess he learned from other disciples of YCF....Some time ago I read about YeDami and that he was the initial teacher of ZMQ. YeDami's fighting skills could probably also be up for debate, as I read that when he was to open his MAschool he took help from one of Sun Lutang's sons to take care of any potential trouble makers that could show up....


More recently an article came out in a Mainland Chinese martial arts magazine about Grandmaster Cheng's taijiquan (Hai Wai He Lin 1990 but I can't remember which edition). In this article it talked about Cheng's role as the founder of his own method of taijiquan. So even in China they recognise that Cheng's style is not the same as that of the Yang family. Cheng's 37 posture form now has almost sixty years of history as this article recorded.

The article pointed out that many of Grandmaster's leading students were already experts in external martial arts. For example Huang Hsinghsian was an expert in white crane boxing. Ji Hongbing was an expert in bagua and xingyi.

The article also recounts how Cheng Man Ching had a sparring match with a French fencing expert. This Frenchman had won fencing championships. Cheng was advised not to enter such a contest because it was felt that taiji straightsword methods could not compete with western fencing. Cheng, however, insisted, he had no fear.

The first time he crossed swords with the Frenchman the Grandmaster cut his wrist. The second time he placed his sword tip on his heart and the third time he was also successful. The Frenchman was very impressed. This is all in this magazine article.

When I spoke to Huang Hsinghsian about his experiences training with Grandmaster he said that the old gentleman did not like his students using his name when they started teaching. But why was this I ask myself. Was it because so many of his students mixed in their own ideas with what the Grandmaster had taught them? Was it that none of them had really come up to his standard?

If you are really researching Grandmaster's art then your appreciation will reflect your own level of skill. Someone who is a taiji primary school student will see primary school standard, secondary school student will see secondary school level, a university student will see university level and so on. The more you learn the deeper the art gets.

http://www.zhong-ding.com/index.php/art ... ers-speakq

I learned the 37 step from a Professor Ken Wen Chi, “亓冠文” who said he learned it directly from CMC introduced to him by his daughters, he was one of their teachers in school back in taiwan...Also practiced a little with Ben Lo, a noted exponent of the style..

One thing that always amazed me are those feeling it took no effort. Ben is retied now, his classes were very tough...one would feel the burn as they say ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 3:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 13, 2018 3:33 am

The Nigel Sutton quote above is talking about our grandmaster yap sue ting.
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sun May 13, 2018 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 3:47 am

wayne hansen wrote:The Nigel Sutton quote above is talking about our grandmaster yap sue ting.




If you are really researching Grandmaster's art then your appreciation will reflect your own level of skill.

Someone who is a taiji primary school student will see primary school standard, secondary school student will see secondary school level, a university student will see university level and so on.
The more you learn the deeper the art gets.


Words of a very wise man.

Although I no longer practice the 37 step learning it and working with those who taught it left a deep impression on me. What looks simple is not so simple
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sun May 13, 2018 8:28 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Chu Hong bin the head of the CMC assn in Taiwan teaches the San shou
I have video of his instructional tapes given to me by his no 1 student
....


Ju Hongbin stole the Sanshou from the Xiong Yanghe lineage, stole, because he never admitted to it. He was taught by a student of Xiong, as the later refused to teach him. The Sanshou left with the Gaoxiong ZMQ group is a real mess, OMG, as well as the sabre and staff.
Ju has left the world a few years ago, I never really liked the man (reacting to small children play with Xingyi), very much a business man, with a younger wife looking the money every second.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sun May 13, 2018 8:39 pm

C.J.W. wrote:.... (Although there are still a few stories circling around of people who mopped the floor with him in private.)....


Yes, I have heard of 2 instances, within 2 of my lineages.

ZMQ was kicked into the gutter once, after quarreling about is true/untrue discipleship under Yang Chengfu, by Wang Zihe (the guy how introduced Yang Shouzhong's short vid), from the Lü Dianchen lineage. Both were rather drunk at that time.

The other one was Xiong Yanghe, who's last and most beloved student told me, that Xiong handled ZMQ with one hand.

And I have met several TW masters of other arts, who loudly stated that they thought ZMQ didn't do anything good for MA during his time in TW.

Not judging, just reporting, of course!
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby windwalker on Sun May 13, 2018 9:00 pm

taiwandeutscher wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:.... (Although there are still a few stories circling around of people who mopped the floor with him in private.)....


Yes, I have heard of 2 instances, within 2 of my lineages.

ZMQ was kicked into the gutter once, after quarreling about is true/untrue discipleship under Yang Chengfu, by Wang Zihe (the guy how introduced Yang Shouzhong's short vid), from the Lü Dianchen lineage. Both were rather drunk at that time.

The other one was Xiong Yanghe, who's last and most beloved student told me, that Xiong handled ZMQ with one hand.

And I have met several TW masters of other arts, who loudly stated that they thought ZMQ didn't do anything good for MA during his time in TW.

Not judging, just reporting, of course!



Of course not judging only reporting what supports your own conclusions.

If you truly were not judging you would also include reports of other Masters who spoke highly of him.

I'm not judging either.
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Re: 37 Taijiquan Posture Applications

Postby edededed on Sun May 13, 2018 9:02 pm

A book about T. T. Liang (Liang Dongcai, Zheng's 1st disciple) described maybe the same encounter between Xiong Yanghe and Zheng Manqing.

The book ("Steal My Art") was quite balanced in its view of Zheng (Liang respected him greatly), and he described what he saw himself.
I like the book for its straight-forward honesty, a trait which I think is unique for Liang's long experience in living in China, Taiwan, and the US.
It also mentions Huang, etc.
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