the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

taiwandeutscher wrote:

C.J.W. wrote:.... (Although there are still a few stories circling around of people who mopped the floor with him in private.)....

Yes, I have heard of 2 instances, within 2 of my lineages.

ZMQ was kicked into the gutter once, after quarreling about is true/untrue discipleship under Yang Chengfu, by Wang Zihe (the guy how introduced Yang Shouzhong's short vid), from the Lü Dianchen lineage. Both were rather drunk at that time.

The other one was Xiong Yanghe, who's last and most beloved student told me, that Xiong handled ZMQ with one hand.

And I have met several TW masters of other arts, who loudly stated that they thought ZMQ didn't do anything good for MA during his time in TW.

Not judging, just reporting, of course!

In a previous post here there is a link to William Chen's biography in where he state that he and ZMQ daily practiced some sort of neigong designed to make the body to efficiently absorb strikes. So what is the full story about the gutter kick, did ZMQ double over or shrugged of that kick?.....Also did these stories flourish during his lifetime or did they come around later....I get the feel that there is a lot of " business mentality" in these stories predominantly flourishing in Asia, on one one hand there are linages that claim ZMQ taught "everything" to them but just to them, then there is the "I kicked ZMQ' butt/gutt" side

T T Liang is someone I respect for his first book
However he did have a falling out with CMC early in his time in America
As for all the I/my teacher kicked his ass stories
Dead men don't fight back
Just the fact that they choose CMC to tell those stories about says a lot
Why as a top martial artist would you tell stories about kicking a bums ass

Trick wrote:
In a previous post here there is a link to William Chen's biography in where he state that he and ZMQ daily practiced some sort of neigong designed to make the body to efficiently absorb strikes. So what is the full story about the gutter kick, did ZMQ double over or shrugged of that kick?.....Also did these stories flourish during his lifetime or did they come around later....I get the feel that there is a lot of " business mentality" in these stories predominantly flourishing in Asia, on one one hand there are linages that claim ZMQ taught "everything" to them but just to them, then there is the "I kicked ZMQ' butt/gutt" side

Beginning in the 1950’s I was assigned to assist Professor Cheng in his advance internal body training which is to absorb a punch while he is asleep. This intensive training was carried out three times a day early morning, noon and late in the evening.

I arrived at his house early in the morning and did not leave until late at night. This gave me a great opportunity to understand Professor Cheng’s lifestyle and martial arts skill. Every day, I listened to his lectures and his answers to questions about T’ai Chi Ch’uan asked by students and visitors who streamed to his house. I realized there are many advantages of staying in the Master’s house.

http://www.williamccchen.com/biograph.htm

7:55 student of teacher cheng being hit by robert smith.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjKG_ndiYKo

windwalker wrote:"Beginning in the 1950’s I was assigned to assist Professor Cheng in his advance internal body training which is to absorb a punch while he is asleep. This intensive training was carried out three times a day early morning, noon and late in the evening. "

William Chen has also said that he used the training methods on himself and that helped him to win matches in competitions as he could handle strong blows. He also teaches his closest students, but only in private.

Other CMC lineages as well as PTCC and a few other TCC schools have similar iron shirt/golden bell cover practice.

trick wrote:he and ZMQ daily practiced some sort of neigong designed to make the body to efficiently absorb strikes. So what is the full story about the gutter kick, did ZMQ double over or shrugged of that kick?....

The thing is... These methods can be great for performances and good in an environment with a strict rules setting. But they can not protect all of the body and vital spots. Other teachers believe that this kind of practice will give you a false sense of protection, build bad, dangerous habits and that your time and effort can be spent way better.

Could this kind of practice make someone full proof? Don't think so. Even the best fighters gets their but kicked then and then. So who cares if CMC got his but kicked? The PTCC guys practice and show of tricks. Still they don't always win in competition. They also make a lot of fuzz about these limited skill sets, and still they don't win all of the MMA tournaments. But this stuff is still excellent for marketing.

PTTC ?

Wudang Practical Tai Chi Chuan

https://wudangtaichichuan.wordpress.com/

(PTCC, not PTTC. My mistake)

I got u now
It was me that got the letters mixed up
I have trained in both the CTH and yap Sui ting systems
I trained several systems of noi gung
They make u stronger but none make you impervious to harm

Bao wrote:

windwalker wrote:"Beginning in the 1950’s I was assigned to assist Professor Cheng in his advance internal body training which is to absorb a punch while he is asleep. This intensive training was carried out three times a day early morning, noon and late in the evening. "

trick wrote:he and ZMQ daily practiced some sort of neigong designed to make the body to efficiently absorb strikes. So what is the full story about the gutter kick, did ZMQ double over or shrugged of that kick?....

The thing is... These methods can be great for performances and good in an environment with a strict rules setting. But they can not protect all of the body and vital spots. Other teachers believe that this kind of practice will give you a false sense of protection, build bad, dangerous habits and that your time and effort can be spent way better.

Could this kind of practice make someone full proof? Don't think so. Even the best fighters gets their but kicked then and then. So who cares if CMC got his but kicked? The PTCC guys practice and show of tricks. Still they don't always win in competition. They also make a lot of fuzz about these limited skill sets, and still they don't win all of the MMA tournaments. But this stuff is still excellent for marketing.

Yes I have seen a fair share of such performances also involving concrete blocks and sledge hammers, it's for show. People into those things are trained for just that and of course prepared when the strike comes....The exercise described in the William Chen link seem to involve a surprise element? (kind of a Clouseau & Cato thing .....The ZMQ got kicked in the gut story is annoying, because it's an obvious half story probably spread when he where no longer around. However the practice seem to have served WC well.......Getting kicked in the gut I have been too while fighting(free sparring) only once was I downed by such because it was well timed and hit spot on, but mostly they where just half hits/misses and could be shrugged off...

Various CMC schools in Malaysia practice(d) these neigong routines. The method in the Zhong Ding school under Nigel Sutton involve(d), as far as I understand, a certain type reverse breathing exercises and increasingly intense self-massage (or 'self-castigation') using heavy filled cloth bags. In a 100-day programme also involving sexual abstention. Personally I never progressed to doing this programme.

I'm not sure about the general health effects: if done correctly under expert supervision it might (?) improve general health and constitution, but if done incorrectly it can certainly mess you up healthwise. I did the breathing exercises without supervision and they had a negative effect on me; took me a couple of months to clear it up again.

I was invited to punch a few Chinese guys who had done this or a similar programme in the past. One or two felt like hitting a car tyre, one or two felt like hitting a big hard leather punchbag (quite painful for the hand). I can certainly see the use of this for sport fighting and for old-school challenge matches. In the real nasty world nowadays it could also be useful, but I wouldn't want to have any sense of confidence or complacency whatsover about "being able to take a punch to the body" that might affect my defensive responses. It might look like a guy is aiming a punch at me and then it turns out he had something sharp and pointy in his hand...

What you say is right there Giles
The schools that teach the noi gung are all in the yap Sui ting lineage
Nigel is in the lu tong Bao lineage
We are in the chock Seng kam lineage
Even though they do demos standing and taking hits and there are contests involving battering rams
This is to show the outcome
For combat yielding is worked on heavily you are never meant to just take the blow
What you say about blades is right
All combat and pushing should work as though both hands hold knives
That is why I don't like the current lean forward bull at a gate style
Not because I can't do it but because it is limited
One way to think of noi gung is as a confidence builder and a form of self hypnosis
It works much like a sports psychologist and can be a valuable 1% addition to your training

Thanks Giles and Wayne, good discussion. You confirm my own thoughts and view, though I have never bothered to dig deeper into this kind of neigong practice.