Aiki Walk

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Aiki Walk

Postby littlepanda on Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:25 am

littlepanda
Anjing
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Interloper on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:41 pm

You won't learn aiki from this set of exercises, but it looks good for developing a nicely aligned posture.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby klonk on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:03 pm

Interloper wrote:You won't learn aiki from this set of exercises, but it looks good for developing a nicely aligned posture.


What would you suggest?
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
User avatar
klonk
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6543
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Interloper on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:00 pm

klonk wrote:
Interloper wrote:You won't learn aiki from this set of exercises, but it looks good for developing a nicely aligned posture.


What would you suggest?


For learning aiki? It depends on where you're located, and what you really want. Hard to recommend a specific dojo or teacher, because it's mostly within Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and not all of their lineages have "it." The ones that do, will not teach it, except to a select handful.

There are a few outliers who have it and will teach it, outside of Daito Ryu. Some have only a partial kit, but will teach you what they have, and you will have to find other sources elsewhere to fill in the gaps. Some may have a more complete kit, but will only teach you so much, and maintain their edge by keeping a few "secrets" to themselves. Still others have a sophisticated kit and will teach it all to you, but it requires you to dedicate yourself to the art in which the aiki is embedded and they will not separate it out and teach it to you separately.

So, a complicated answer to a simple question! ;)
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:13 pm

Interloper wrote:
klonk wrote:
Interloper wrote:You won't learn aiki from this set of exercises, but it looks good for developing a nicely aligned posture.


What would you suggest?


For learning aiki? It depends on where you're located, and what you really want. Hard to recommend a specific dojo or teacher, because it's mostly within Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, and not all of their lineages have "it." The ones that do, will not teach it, except to a select handful.

There are a few outliers who have it and will teach it, outside of Daito Ryu. Some have only a partial kit, but will teach you what they have, and you will have to find other sources elsewhere to fill in the gaps. Some may have a more complete kit, but will only teach you so much, and maintain their edge by keeping a few "secrets" to themselves. Still others have a sophisticated kit and will teach it all to you, but it requires you to dedicate yourself to the art in which the aiki is embedded and they will not separate it out and teach it to you separately.

So, a complicated answer to a simple question! ;)

Do you have Aiki? If so, what exercises do you recommend ?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Interloper on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:25 pm

Trick wrote:Do you have Aiki? If so, what exercises do you recommend ?


Aiki is just the Japanese term for the ability to use internal mechanics to manipulate an opponent's center of mass and force him to merge with the movements of your own body... the difference between you and the opponent being that you are in complete control of what you are doing, and his body is like a puppet, forced to move in mirror to your motions, and to receive the brunt of the force those movements generate. Its processes share the same basic principles and concepts of some Chinese internal martial arts.

I have been training and exploring it for 20 years, at this point. Learning it is like a spiral: you start with a certain understanding and command of the principles and the concepts, and over time you keep coming back to the same principles, but they keep taking on more layers of meaning. So, you can "have aiki," and you can "have aiki"... and what that means, is that you keep getting more of those layers, but you never feel you're close to the pinnacle of where you could be going with it.

In some of the JIMA, there are what are called "tanren undo" -- forging drills -- that help develop the different components of building internal power, but, as with other internal arts (e.g. CIMA), it is a body methodology that is best learned when embedded within a whole art, not learned piecemeal and then trying to retrofit it into one's fighting art or martial system. There are several reasons for this, having to do with developing a comprehensive internal method and of applying it effectively martially.

The issue I have with videos like the ones in the OP, is they do not explain their purpose; show any practical results of such exercises, show their applications, or provide any real context for doing what they're doing. The accompanying writings don't make the intent or the bigger picture any clearer. I guess you get what you pay for, in these free videos. :) So, rather than recommend a piecemeal batch of exercises or sit down and draft out an entire curriculum for an art that's not mine to give away, I'd say you're best off finding a good taiji, bagua or other such teacher who has the goods and will teach them within the context of his/her art, and show you the proper exercises of the system to get you there. It's worth the investment to do direct, focused, guided training.
Last edited by Interloper on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Trick on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:31 pm

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:Do you have Aiki? If so, what exercises do you recommend ?


Aiki is just the Japanese term for the ability to use internal mechanics to manipulate an opponent's center of mass and force him to merge with the movements of your own body... the difference between you and the opponent being that you are in complete control of what you are doing, and his body is like a puppet, forced to move in mirror to your motions, and to receive the brunt of the force those movements generate. Its processes share the same basic principles and concepts of some Chinese internal martial arts.

I have been training and exploring it for 20 years, at this point. Learning it is like a spiral: you start with a certain understanding and command of the principles and the concepts, and over time you keep coming back to the same principles, but they keep taking on more layers of meaning. So, you can "have aiki," and you can "have aiki"... and what that means, is that you keep getting more of those layers, but you never feel you're close to the pinnacle of where you could be going with it.

In some of the JIMA, there are what are called "tanren undo" -- forging drills -- that help develop the different components of building internal power, but, as with other internal arts (e.g. CIMA), it is a body methodology that is best learned when embedded within a whole art, not learned piecemeal and then trying to retrofit it into one's fighting art or martial system. There are several reasons for this, having to do with developing a comprehensive internal method and of applying it effectively martially.

The issue I have with videos like the ones in the OP, is they do not explain their purpose; show any practical results of such exercises, show their applications, or provide any real context for doing what they're doing. The accompanying writings don't make the intent or the bigger picture any clearer. I guess you get what you pay for, in these free videos. :) So, rather than recommend a piecemeal batch of exercises or sit down and draft out an entire curriculum for an art that's not mine to give away, I'd say you're best off finding a good taiji, bagua or other such teacher who has the goods and will teach them within the context of his/her art, and show you the proper exercises of the system to get you there. It's worth the investment to do direct, focused, guided training.

Well thanks for the long answer that didn't answer too much, but of course I understand it's all very secretive in that world but since you comment the OP with "you won't learn Aiki from this set of exercises" then you should of course tell from what set of exercises he would learn Aiki to be fair. You mention "tanren undo" which is a lead and that's good.....You also compare Aiki with Chinese internal martial arts practice and seem to suggest to study in those instead to learn Aiki?...are you a long time practitioner of ICMA's ? .....I myself have been into ICMA since(89) and learned from good teachers both in Europe and here in China, prior that I was into JMA's with an overlap period until(93) If I have Aiki/IP or not I don't know I just like to practice but nowadays kind of lazily 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:08 am

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:Do you have Aiki? If so, what exercises do you recommend ?


Aiki is just the Japanese term for the ability to use internal mechanics to manipulate an opponent's center of mass and force him to merge with the movements of your own body... the difference between you and the opponent being that you are in complete control of what you are doing, and his body is like a puppet, forced to move in mirror to your motions, and to receive the brunt of the force those movements generate. Its processes share the same basic principles and concepts of some Chinese internal martial arts.

I have been training and exploring it for 20 years, at this point. Learning it is like a spiral: you start with a certain understanding and command of the principles and the concepts, and over time you keep coming back to the same principles, but they keep taking on more layers of meaning. So, you can "have aiki," and you can "have aiki"... and what that means, is that you keep getting more of those layers, but you never feel you're close to the pinnacle of where you could be going with it.



The issue I have with videos like the ones in the OP, is they do not explain their purpose; show any practical results of such exercises, show their applications.

It's worth the investment to do direct, focused, guided training.


I like your writing, but it is diffecult to grasp the overlap?
I'm purposely avoiding the other woo woo video's that I seen, because we all know where that goes already.
So, could you tell me about this one?
Last edited by willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
willie
Wuji
 
Posts: 2409
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby jaime_g on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:34 pm

Roy Goldberg is very very good, I felt him and learned quite interesting material.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:44 pm

jaime_g wrote:Roy Goldberg is very very good, I felt him and learned quite interesting material.

Okay great, can you tell me what to look for in this video, when I am looking for aiki specifically?
willie
Wuji
 
Posts: 2409
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby jaime_g on Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:33 pm

Sure. Forget about the technique, look at the way he turns and drops his body
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:52 pm

jaime_g wrote:Sure. Forget about the technique, look at the way he turns and drops his body

I thought aiki was supposed to be about qi?
I don't know anything about aikijujutsu, but I do know how to tunnel forces back through the same limb.
I was under the impression that was aiki?
For people who don't quite understand what I'm talking about I will offer a little piece of information about it.
In reeling silk, a very odd thing begins to happen to the human body. As time goes by the person accumulates more and more Qi within the body. When there is enough of this energy, the joints will begin to open. When the joints open, the qi flows smoothly through them. As in the case of a wrist lock. the flow of Qi running through the joint helps to protect the joint from injury thereby nullifying the pain that most individuals would endure. Now the key is to not only accept the wrist lock, but to be able to reverse that energy back at your opponent. This is something that just started happening to me a few years ago, it happened automatically. So I'm not an expert at it, but it is definitely something that has occurred.
Last edited by willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
willie
Wuji
 
Posts: 2409
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Tom on Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:37 pm

jaime_g wrote:Roy Goldberg is very very good, I felt him and learned quite interesting material.


Roy Goldberg is excellent, in skill level and in clarity of teaching.

What the gent in the original post (Allen Beebe) and Roy Goldberg in this clip ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7f3fUuBVR4 ) are trying to do is show basic steps towards building the kind of body integration in which aiki will manifest at contact between the aiki exponent and the opponent.

What Interloper, Allen Beebe and Roy Goldberg have in common is that all have trained with Dan Harden (although it's been many years since Interloper has). Roy Goldberg still trains with Dan.

Willie, from my limited understanding of and exposure to what Dan teaches and to Chen taijiquan, qi as you're describing it is not really the same as aiki in the way that Dan teaches and uses it, rooted in the Daito Ryu Kodokai paradigm that Dan and Roy both trained in (and that Roy still formally teaches). Dan refers to some limited exposure he had to Liu Chengde and to Wang Haijun (one of your teacher's teachers), and in particular to Liu Chengde's account of teaching some Daito Ryu practitioners from the late Sagawa Yukiyoshi's dojo, but that is in connection with dantien usage and the DR practitioners not really having any sense of or ability to use dantien, not in connection with qi cultivation. That being said, some of Dan's exercises do serve to "open" the joints and may have an impact on the student's sense of qi circulation. You should get yourself back over to Spencer sooner rather than later to get some hands-on time with Dan. Your impressions from many years ago probably would be different today.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4532
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Tom wrote:
jaime_g wrote:Roy Goldberg is very very good, I felt him and learned quite interesting material.


Roy Goldberg is excellent, in skill level and in clarity of teaching.

What the gent in the original post (Allen Beebe) and Roy Goldberg in this clip ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7f3fUuBVR4 ) are trying to do is show basic steps towards building the kind of body integration in which aiki will manifest at contact between the aiki exponent and the opponent.

What Interloper, Allen Beebe and Roy Goldberg have in common is that all have trained with Dan Harden (although it's been many years since Interloper has). Roy Goldberg still trains with Dan.

Willie, from my limited understanding of and exposure to what Dan teaches and to Chen taijiquan, qi as you're describing it is not really the same as aiki in the way that Dan teaches and uses it, rooted in the Daito Ryu Kodokai paradigm that Dan and Roy both trained in (and that Roy still formally teaches). Dan refers to some limited exposure he had to Liu Chengde and to Wang Haijun (one of your teacher's teachers), and in particular to Liu Chengde's account of teaching some Daito Ryu practitioners from the late Sagawa Yukiyoshi's dojo, but that is in connection with dantien usage and the DR practitioners not really having any sense of or ability to use dantien, not in connection with qi cultivation. That being said, some of Dan's exercises do serve to "open" the joints and may have an impact on the student's sense of qi circulation. You should get yourself back over to Spencer sooner rather than later to get some hands-on time with Dan. Your impressions from many years ago probably would be different today.

Hi Tom. No actually I had a pretty good experience meeting Dan years ago. It was actually refreshing to see somebody from jujitsu who was into internal stuff. At that time I was still training MMA, so Dan was a bit of a strange one in a cool way. However, at that time I was really interested in the super soft Yang Style which I had encountered and was training with my teacher at my house.
The interpretation that I talked about above was a combination of chen-style reeling silk, but the actual information of the why it occurred did not come from a Chen Style instructor.
I actually told my old Yang style teacher about the event and he filled me in on the details of it. Apparently what I was trying to describe is actually the basis for Chinese medicine.
Last edited by willie on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
willie
Wuji
 
Posts: 2409
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am

Re: Aiki Walk

Postby Interloper on Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Trick wrote:Well thanks for the long answer that didn't answer too much, but of course I understand it's all very secretive in that world but since you comment the OP with "you won't learn Aiki from this set of exercises" then you should of course tell from what set of exercises he would learn Aiki to be fair. You mention "tanren undo" which is a lead and that's good.....You also compare Aiki with Chinese internal martial arts practice and seem to suggest to study in those instead to learn Aiki?...are you a long time practitioner of ICMA's ? .....I myself have been into ICMA since(89) and learned from good teachers both in Europe and here in China, prior that I was into JMA's with an overlap period until(93) If I have Aiki/IP or not I don't know I just like to practice but nowadays kind of lazily 8-)


Trick, I'm not trying to be evasive, but you have to know that it makes no sense whatsoever to hand out exercises for this kind of stuff, out of context of training in the arts they come from. Some of the things I've learned are proprietary to the arts that taught them to me, and it's not my place to give them away. Others, are of my own devising and are mine, but I'm not going to just give those out, either, because -- again -- out of context, they will not be of any real use to someone. I'm not being secretive, it's just that piecemeal doesn't work. I do have friends and acquaintances who are currently training, and having difficulty understanding some of the things they are being shown, and on a one-on-one basis I sometimes help them clarify the material by sharing with them some of my own tanren undo to fill in some gaps. But that helps only when the individual has other pieces of the puzzle already, and just needs something to connect a few dots.

And, I -did- tell you what kinds of exercises would help you develop this skill set. Exercises that are part of a comprehensive system that has those skills... again, not piecemeal, out-of-context body work such as what you see in those "freebie" on-line lessons. Teachers have cohesive curriculums for a reason. They are meant to forge a student's body and inner understanding from the base, up. A lot of the stuff you see online and in seminars, is not following that kind of "chronological" foundation-building pattern.

"Aiki" is just the term that internal Japanese martial arts use to describe one of the products of internal body method. I defined it for you, in the context of what it means in my personal experience in the aikijujutsu system I study. It also happens to overlap with the Chinese internal art I train in as well. Different terminology, different ways of expressing the principles martially and overtly, but similar exercises for developing the same principles and command of the body.

If you have trained in good internal systems, under good teachers who truly shared their skills with you and provided some direct transmission of their knowledge, you should have IP and at least some recognizable expression of aiki. If you can absorb and project force; generate and utilize power from your kua; draw in and propel out an opponent/partner without shoving or pulling, or muscling from the arms and shoulders; compel your opponent to move in any direction or pattern that you wish, using only a light touch at the point of contact; be hard to move and throw; be able to neutralize and reverse an attempt to lock your joints... among other skills, then you have at least some measure of aiki.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4753
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Next

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: .Q. and 11 guests

cron