What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:20 am

grzegorz wrote:The Tired Debate.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1040891387

We discussed the above link over a decade ago. In fact you can find Steve James in the comments. -joint-

In the "Tired Debate" article, Matt specifically writes the terms "street vs sport," "Sport Fighters" and "SPORT Gym" are used as "straw men."

Rather, It is about aliveness: timing, energy, and motion. Matt says timing and footwork are skills that can be used in a fight, that "transcend culture, body, era and venue:"
Matt Thornton wrote:I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary. . . .

My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.

In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated. . . .

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think that's fine. But that's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

So putting aside the subject of "MMA" and Matt Thornton for a moment, answering more specifically What" skills "makes Martial Arts Effective?" may help answer the broader topic, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?"

grzegorz wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Awareness, etc, none of which MT teaches, as far as I know. In fact, I had an SBG instructor tell me I was some kind of psychopath because we involve weapons in our training. His focus was purely on "nice" training with a lot of putting other things down. It's another construct, similar to what they criticise in some ways.


Thanks Rob. That is kind of what I was warning against. SBGi is very good at marketing but obviously somehow their styles are all you need. I drank the koolaid but took everything with a grain of salt. For me MMA styles are not really about street fighting as much as developing extreme conditioning. Extreme conditioning alone will probably win most street fights against an untrained fighter but a train fighter with a weapon?

Taking away "Extreme conditioning" in your opinion, what skills can help one be more effective in "street fighting?"
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby RobP3 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:56 am

marvin8 wrote:So putting aside the subject of "MMA" and Matt Thornton for a moment, answering more specifically What" skills "makes Martial Arts Effective?" may help answer the broader topic, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?"



Then the question is "effective at what?" If martial means war, are we talking battlefield?
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:19 am

RobP3 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:So putting aside the subject of "MMA" and Matt Thornton for a moment, answering more specifically What" skills "makes Martial Arts Effective?" may help answer the broader topic, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?"



Then the question is "effective at what?" If martial means war, are we talking battlefield?

At "street fighting" as grzegorz mentioned:
marvin8 wrote:
grzegorz wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Awareness, etc, none of which MT teaches, as far as I know. In fact, I had an SBG instructor tell me I was some kind of psychopath because we involve weapons in our training. His focus was purely on "nice" training with a lot of putting other things down. It's another construct, similar to what they criticise in some ways.


Thanks Rob. That is kind of what I was warning against. SBGi is very good at marketing but obviously somehow their styles are all you need. I drank the koolaid but took everything with a grain of salt. For me MMA styles are not really about street fighting as much as developing extreme conditioning. Extreme conditioning alone will probably win most street fights against an untrained fighter but a train fighter with a weapon?

Taking away "Extreme conditioning" in your opinion, what skills can help one be more effective in "street fighting?"
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby Greg J on Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:24 am

This has been an interesting thread to follow (I also really liked the link to the "tired debate" thread on Tim Cartmell's old forum).

marvin8 wrote:
So putting aside the subject of "MMA" and Matt Thornton for a moment, answering more specifically What" skills "makes Martial Arts Effective?" may help answer the broader topic, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?"



- Awareness (trained through meditation, practice using peripheral vision and 360 degree awareness)
- General fitness (good base of steady state cardio, anaerobic training, and strength training)
- Proficiency with a few high percentage offensive and defensive techniques that are effective at different ranges (weapons range; largo mano range; corto range; clinch / standing grappling range; and ground grappling range to use the Dog Brothers terms)
- Proficiency falling/ being taken down and getting up quickly
- Experience and some desensitization to the adrenal state
- Having an established ethical framework for use of force
- Knowledge of self-defense laws

As has been mentioned before, the content and degree of what individuals can train is going to to vary based on age, body type, injuries, and mindset. But I would say these are skills that are the minimum necessary to make a martial art effective (for both self-defense and personal growth).

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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby grzegorz on Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:00 am

Hi Marvin,

Years ago I would have enjoyed this discussion but now getting close to 2020 where MMA gyms are everywhere I don't really see the point.

Mostly what i am saying is that I drank Thorton's koolaid too and at one time swore by it but since then I have also met with and sparred with people who did very traditional styles and training and they would do very well in a street fight in my humble opinion. Basically Thorton has some truth but it isn't necessary the truth for everyone. If you listen to him enough he is basically saying we should all just do MMA. To me it reminds me too much for religion to take seriously.

If someone wants to dig around there is another talk where he is in Iceland on youku (10 years ago) and he is telling a TKD fighter who does a bunch of kicks every morning that he is wasting his life and another SBGi instructor there says he did 10 years of FMA ans wasted his life. They are entitled to there opinions but it is basically a sales pitch.

Anyway, BJJ abounds and if people like to roll then go roll. I don't see any reason to debate that just passing on my experience to the OP.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:32 am

grzegorz wrote:Hi Marvin,

Years ago I would have enjoyed this discussion but now getting close to 2020 where MMA gyms are everywhere I don't really see the point.

Mostly what i am saying is that I drank Thorton's koolaid too and at one time swore by it but since then I have also met with and sparred with people who did very traditional styles and training and they would do very well in a street fight in my humble opinion. Basically Thorton has some truth but it isn't necessary the truth for everyone. If you listen to him enough he is basically saying we should all just do MMA. To me it reminds me too much for religion to take seriously.

If someone wants to dig around there is another talk where he is in Iceland on youku (10 years ago) and he is telling a TKD fighter who does a bunch of kicks every morning that he is wasting his life and another SBGi instructor there says he did 10 years of FMA ans wasted his life. They are entitled to there opinions but it is basically a sales pitch.

Anyway, BJJ abounds and if people like to roll then go roll. I don't see any reason to debate that just passing on my experience to the OP.

I am only commenting on the OP video and article posted. I understand your position on Matt from your earlier post and mentioned I do not agree with everything Matt says either. That is why I asked to, "put aside the subject of MMA and Matt Thornton for a moment," in order to have a more meaningful discussion.

Matt is not "basically saying we should all just do MMA." He does say, "Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters." That's faulty logic and poor assumptions."

Ironically, it appears you want to debate (e.g., Matt Thornton, MMA) or miss the point in the "Tired Debate:" "street vs sport. . . . It's a tired and meaningless debate." Even before you posted the "Tired Debate" article, I was correcting the same point Matt makes in the article, which takes up most of this thread.

Here is part of that article again:
marvin8 wrote:In the "Tired Debate" article, Matt specifically writes the terms "street vs sport," "Sport Fighters" and "SPORT Gym" are used as "straw men."

Matt Thornton wrote:I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary. . . .

My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.

In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated. . . .

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think that's fine. But that's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.


Since your statement implies MMA relies more on "conditioning" than "street fighting" skills, I thought you might elaborate on "street fighting" and those missing skills:
grzegorz wrote:For me MMA styles are not really about street fighting as much as developing extreme conditioning.


This thread is familiar and not unexpected. A non-existent debate (a point of the article you introduced into this thread) is brought up: street vs sport, sport fighting or MMA. And, the discussion doesn't go much further. However, I do appreciate Greg J's and other's input on the topic.
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby grzegorz on Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:37 am

I want to debate a thread from 2002? Sounds like a miscommunication.

Nah, just clarifying my opinion and enjoying a blast from the past.

I think I must have had 20 SBGi videos. Looked like a fun place to train.

Then again if I lived in Portland I probably would have just partied instead.

FWIW I showed some of Matt's jits to a Gracie once (my coach) and he didn't think much. Just a reminder that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I know Rodney King has made a few statements about SBGi in recent interviews. Do with that which you will.

I am out. Have a good weekend.
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:13 pm

grzegorz wrote:I want to debate a thread from 2002? Sounds like a miscommunication.

Nah, just clarifying my opinion and enjoying a blast from the past.

I think I must have had 20 SBGi videos. Looked like a fun place to train.

Then again if I lived in Portland I probably would have just partied instead.

FWIW I showed some of Matt's jits to a Gracie once (my coach) and he didn't think much. Just a reminder that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I know Rodney King has made a few statements about SBGi in recent interviews. Do with that which you will.

I am out. Have a good weekend.

marvin8 wrote:So putting aside the subject of "MMA" and Matt Thornton for a moment, answering more specifically "What" skills "makes Martial Arts Effective?" may help answer the broader topic, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?"

OK, debate was a strong word. You don't want to "put aside the subject of Matt Thornton for a moment." :(

marvin8 wrote:Since your statement implies MMA relies more on "conditioning" than "street fighting" skills, I thought you might elaborate on "street fighting" and those missing skills:
grzegorz wrote:For me MMA styles are not really about street fighting as much as developing extreme conditioning.

It would be more interesting to read about the "street fighting" skills that "MMA styles" don't use—which would help answer the question, "What Makes Martial Arts Effective?" :)
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Re: What Makes Martial Arts Effective? Matt Thornton — Rokas

Postby grzegorz on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:15 pm

Forget about Matt Thorton!

It's all marketing.

Think for yourself.

He has his journey and you have yours.

As for BJJ there are much instructionals out there. Ryan Hall for starters....
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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