Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby retreats108 on Tue May 01, 2018 3:59 pm

Hi LD - thank you very much for your question and your thoughts, it seems quite timely.

1. My aim with the Flying Monk channel is to document traditional arts and teachers, including the history, cultural context, spiritual aspects, healing, and of course the internal power training and martial skills. It is - hopefully - educational, interesting, useful, and lets people know about these teachers if they are looking for a path.

2. I have zero interest in MMA, competitions, sparring matches, trying to work out who could beat who at what stage of their career etc. It is just not where I put my attention.

3. As to asking my friends who are Masters or my teachers to spar on video - against who, for what reason, and to prove what? This is the crux of the matter.

4. There are a hundred formats for 'testing' ones 'skills' - where does it stop? Which one will be enough to please every viewer? (again, its a serious question..)

5. What do you mean by free format and real time circumstance? Do you mean going into a outlaw biker bar and taking on five guys....or facing off with a machete in an African tribal conflict......going into a gypsy camp and challenging the men and their dogs.....what? Or do you mean you and a guy having a friendly exchange of 'techniques'?

6. Who has a lamentable image of traditional martial arts? I don't, I think they are brilliant!

The men I have studied with and done plenty of contact work with, lived with, watched how they are great human beings, studied with them how they heal people from all manner of illness, how their arts have helped them evolve spiritually and mentally, age gracefully - teachers like Serge Augier, He Jing Han, Paul Rogers, Sam Chin, Paul Whitrod, Gordon Tso, Chen Yuen San, Shun Yuen, Eiichi Tanaka - all of them keep alive the traditional arts and most of them have survived many violent encounters using their skills, against all kinds of martial arts and all manner of serious illness.

Should we 'delete the cultural accessories' such as the healing art, the emphasis on Wu De, the study of ancient scrolls - and would this 'accelerate learning time?

These are brilliant paths to be walking on once you see that they are methods for cultivating one's whole being, of surviving, enduring, evolving , developing qualities and internal power.

7. Now - as to how TCMA develops the qualities and internal power needed to survive real violence, barehand, weapons, and other - this is a key point! And this is where many systems have become watered down. So what is missing, what has been lost, does anyone have it? Is it 'lack of sparring'? is it 'lack of testing'? Or is it something completely other ?? What do you think?

Will the ability to change faster than one's attacker come from training fast?

Will useable internal power come from chan sz jin?

Will sparring soft, hard, ground, standing, ring, dojo, bring out the useful reflex needed to survive?

Do you have a standard for knowing when you have acquired the thing you are searching for? What is it? Is it being a world champion in MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ ? if not....what? Have you trained enough to trust yourself to take care of your self?

Is it worth to be a champion sports or mma fighter if in doing so you acquire brain damage, or sell your Wu De soul to the proverbial devil?

If sparring is the magic cauldron - is it enough by itself, if not - what else? If you say drills, what drills and why?

And most importantly - are you training with death in mind? Knowing that any violent encounter may bring death? Or that death is coming anyway....are you preparing for that...or just for the next sparring match?


For me these are real questions, I have answers - but I am curious what you and others think.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby Tiga Pukul on Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 am

Excellent answer Alex!

To answer your question if i practice Serak, i practice Bukti Negara which in it's core is directly connected to Serak.

Also on your thoughts on sparring and preparing with death in mind, i recall a nice article of a famous Dutch Indonesian Silat Master called Pak Turpijn.
He was quoted saying:

"You know, I have difficulty with seeing Pencak Silat as a sport. I was taught it so very differently. My Guru said: "Death is the recognition of defeat", and I belief in that very much. To be able to say you won from me, you have to kill me, it's as simple as that."

And he had the experience to back it up since he had to use the skills when he was still a late teenager and fight for independence in Indonesia in the 1940's and 1950's. And no those were no sparring matches...

Seemingly a lot of people are no longer fully convinced of the efficacy of the traditional martial arts they practice so are looking for a format like MMA or even Pushing hands competition. I understand it's goal but It's still something quite different then learning these tools for self-preservation.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby RobP3 on Thu May 03, 2018 8:06 am

If you want to test something, man up and go and test it, don't ask for video clips. In any case, whatever clip is put up will draw criticism from someone. So many "free sparring" clips I see are dancing around for 10 minutes and barely hitting each other
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby middleway on Thu May 03, 2018 3:56 pm

Seemingly a lot of people are no longer fully convinced of the efficacy of the traditional martial arts they practice so are looking for a format like MMA or even Pushing hands competition. I understand it's goal but It's still something quite different then learning these tools for self-preservation.


Many top mma fighters come from rough backgrounds. Fighting for their lives. The sport of combat represents an escape not a replacement or some delusion that it is 'more real' than the street.

i faced knives, machetes and multiple opponents... I know violence. My interest in combat sports is not for self defence... it is for self discovery.

Something lost on those who believe those methods are so lacking. The romance of the traditional art remains and the inferiority of the combat sport is still persistent in the minds of the romantic. But I have seen both sides of the coin ... and often neither side knows the other to any real degree.
Last edited by middleway on Thu May 03, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby LDShouler on Thu May 03, 2018 4:01 pm

Hi again,
I do apologise if I seem to imply that I am requesting 'da streets' or 'the octagon' style confrontations, that is not what I intended to ask. I asked to see more of traditional disciplines engaging in free format sparring/drills/etc. of whatever intensity purely because I enjoy to see people express their martial disciplines in a non choreographed way. As an organic farmer living in deepest France I do not get many opportunities to travel, and so for me I have a deep curiosity in seeing various other practitioners move (it inspires me, even though I recognise the learning limitations) on video. However, I really do believe that a lot of traditional arts have an image problem in terms of their combativeness owing to many factors, and perhaps more public evidence of them being used outside of drills could help improve things. Ultimately, it is not super important but the martial relevance and particularities of traditional martial arts (or all martial arts!) interests me more than the cultural, spiritual or rote elements...Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to denigrate your video series Alex!
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 03, 2018 11:15 pm

Tiga Pukul wrote:Excellent answer Alex!

To answer your question if i practice Serak, i practice Bukti Negara which in it's core is directly connected to Serak.

Also on your thoughts on sparring and preparing with death in mind, i recall a nice article of a famous Dutch Indonesian Silat Master called Pak Turpijn.
He was quoted saying:

"You know, I have difficulty with seeing Pencak Silat as a sport. I was taught it so very differently. My Guru said: "Death is the recognition of defeat", and I belief in that very much. To be able to say you won from me, you have to kill me, it's as simple as that."

And he had the experience to back it up since he had to use the skills when he was still a late teenager and fight for independence in Indonesia in the 1940's and 1950's. And no those were no sparring matches...

Seemingly a lot of people are no longer fully convinced of the efficacy of the traditional martial arts they practice so are looking for a format like MMA or even Pushing hands competition. I understand it's goal but It's still something quite different then learning these tools for self-preservation.


True. Times have changed and TMAists no longer train to fight for survival with life and death in mind.

My Fujian White Crane teacher is over 100 years old now, and still talks about the days when he and other local Fukienese martial artists formed guerillas against the Japanese during the war. They would carry out raids at night or take out lone Japanese soldiers using mainly knives, axes, and sticks due to the lack of firearms, and relied heavily on their kungfu skills. He also remembers vividly the techniques they developed specifically to deal with their samurai sword-wielding adversaries who often knew Kendo and Judo.

And my late grandfather, who hailed from Henan province, grew up in the late 1910s when China was in political turmoil and torn apart by warlords. As a child, he was once kidnapped by horseback bandits (ma3zei2 馬賊 in Chinese) that ran rampant in the area at the time, and held for ransom. My great great grandfather, a fairly wealthy landowner, managed to put together enough money to hire several professional caravan escort guards to rescue him. He told me that when his rescuers tracked him down and engaged the kidnappers, he saw one of them kill and later cut off a bandit's head with a saber, and another bandit falling off the horse after getting speared in the chest like a human kebab. The man who was speared landed near him, and he had to listen to the horrible gurgling sounds made by the dying man for what felt like an eternity while hiding in a bush. (He'd still have nightmares about this incident even as an old man well into his 80s).

I don't suppose people like them need any convincing in order to believe that TMA actually works.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby Overlord on Fri May 04, 2018 1:58 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Tiga Pukul wrote:Excellent answer Alex!

To answer your question if i practice Serak, i practice Bukti Negara which in it's core is directly connected to Serak.

Also on your thoughts on sparring and preparing with death in mind, i recall a nice article of a famous Dutch Indonesian Silat Master called Pak Turpijn.
He was quoted saying:

"You know, I have difficulty with seeing Pencak Silat as a sport. I was taught it so very differently. My Guru said: "Death is the recognition of defeat", and I belief in that very much. To be able to say you won from me, you have to kill me, it's as simple as that."

And he had the experience to back it up since he had to use the skills when he was still a late teenager and fight for independence in Indonesia in the 1940's and 1950's. And no those were no sparring matches...

Seemingly a lot of people are no longer fully convinced of the efficacy of the traditional martial arts they practice so are looking for a format like MMA or even Pushing hands competition. I understand it's goal but It's still something quite different then learning these tools for self-preservation.


True. Times have changed and TMAists no longer train to fight for survival with life and death in mind.

My Fujian White Crane teacher is over 100 years old now, and still talks about the days when he and other local Fukienese martial artists formed guerillas against the Japanese during the war. They would carry out raids at night or take out lone Japanese soldiers using mainly knives, axes, and sticks due to the lack of firearms, and relied heavily on their kungfu skills. He also remembers vividly the techniques they developed specifically to deal with their samurai sword-wielding adversaries who often knew Kendo and Judo.

And my late grandfather, who hailed from Henan province, grew up in the late 1910s when China was in political turmoil and torn apart by warlords. As a child, he was once kidnapped by horseback bandits (ma3zei2 馬賊 in Chinese) that ran rampant in the area at the time, and held for ransom. My great great grandfather, a fairly wealthy landowner, managed to put together enough money to hire several professional caravan escort guards to rescue him. He told me that when his rescuers tracked him down and engaged the kidnappers, he saw one of them kill and later cut off a bandit's head with a saber, and another bandit falling off the horse after getting speared in the chest like a human kebab. The man who was speared landed near him, and he had to listen to the horrible gurgling sounds made by the dying man for what felt like an eternity while hiding in a bush. (He'd still have nightmares about this incident even as an old man well into his 80s).

I don't suppose people like them need any convincing in order to believe that TMA actually works.

Funny Strange and I were having similar conversations in Singapore last week.
Last edited by Overlord on Fri May 04, 2018 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby posidon on Fri May 04, 2018 8:26 am

All over the world same conversations are made!! A similar one in running in a Greek martial arts forum due to a video posted.

However I believe Alex's questions are to the point of the matter. Serious considerations for all martial artists...
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby Strange on Fri May 04, 2018 5:23 pm

CJW, thanks for sharing
one does not mess with escorts
no, there's nothing wrong with tcma

there are ppl with time and money
they go there look around try it out
write review, comment, experience and feeling
... i know another type of ppl do this
they are tourists
Last edited by Strange on Fri May 04, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 06, 2018 2:51 am

I think this interview with Byron Jacobs answers a lot of the questions raised in this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlzMWaIIeiI

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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 06, 2018 12:00 pm

The sub titles don't show on my feed
It might just be in Australia
Is it in Vimeo
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby marvin8 on Sun May 06, 2018 1:52 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The sub titles don't show on my feed
It might just be in Australia
Is it in Vimeo

If you see the CC box on the right bottom corner, click on it to show closed captions. Or at the right bottom corner, click on gear (settings) —> Subtitles/CC, then choose English.

I didn't see it on Vimeo.

A couple excerpts I was going to post.

GrahamB wrote:I think this interview with Byron Jacobs answers a lot of the questions raised in this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlzMWaIIeiI

I agree with your statement.

Starting at 4:44:
Byron Jacobs: All wushu, all of China’s martial practices including the martial practices of other countries, the root of the practice is combat application as a form of self-defense and for specific use. And it is upon this basic concept that the practices were developed in the first place and with this goal, people practiced and studied them. This is an extremely important point and it is the main goal. Without this aspect, it will incorrectly affect your ideas, mentality and method of training. Because if you lose this goal, you path will also be changed. . . . So people today are disconnected from these ideas of combat and application. But, the martial concepts and combat applications are a 100 percent responsible for guiding and leading your thoughts and mentality about how you train. You can say the intent of the practice. The intent of each technique. Because if we evaluate a technique, there is a correct method of execution.

Starting at 29:10:
Byron Jacobs: If wushu practitioners wish to enter MMA events, they would need to amend their training regime and method. They should remove many aspects. Of course they would be able to go fight. But, if you remove all these aspects which are unnecessary for MMA, what will be left?

Interviewer: So, it’s goal is not simply for competition.

Byron Jacobs: Yes. Their goal wasn’t to create an open format, where everything goes, with mixed methods from other arts. Competition fighting event. They designed their sparring event and the accepted combat methods within it, in line with Karate’s methods and principles. In order to represent Karate’s methods and techniques
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 06, 2018 7:09 pm

Thanks for helping out an old Luddite marvinim a cc rider now
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby middleway on Mon May 07, 2018 12:52 am

I agree with the original outlook and meaning of tcma. I also agree that mma is not the best representation of street work... by a long way!

However, there are certain things that competition formats do bring to the table that are absolutely relevant to self defence. Things like the will to succeed when you are getting your ass kicked. (Heart), pre fight fear inoculation, the feeling of a full resisting person using all of their strength and skill to defeat you. These things are VERY hard to replicate in the training environment. Even in full competition bjj and mma sparing it is not the same as the real competition against an opponent, these is a big difference even there.

It seems there is some deeply rooted idea that competition outside of the art is 'bad'. And yet how many times do we hear the 1928 all China full contact tournament quoted by as proof of effectiveness. Really that event should be shunned.

Like I say, for me I see no reason an individual should not explore both approaches in an attempt to better their personal understanding of fighting, especially and specifically if they do not have a tradition to uphold or a certain 'style' they represent.

Thanks
Last edited by middleway on Mon May 07, 2018 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martial Secrets 5 - Simon Das Silat Pukulan

Postby Trick on Mon May 07, 2018 1:14 am

middleway wrote:I
It seems there is some deeply rooted idea that competition outside of the art is 'bad'. And yet how many times do we hear the 1928 all China full contact tournament quoted by as proof of effectiveness. Really that event should be shunned.

Although no video clips from that tournament 8-) I think in most minds nowadays the famous Taiji vs WhiteCrane masters full-contact fight might come to mind quite easy when trying to imagine the brawl of 1928 8-)
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