Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

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Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 02, 2018 3:05 pm

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Uploaded on Jun 19, 2017

Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks:

1. sink the qi 1:25
2. the dantian moves 4:19
3. jin is not structure 5:48
4. connection 7:40
5. winding 9:48
6. Radio KJIN (was long power is short power) 11:05
7. rotation and weight shift not necessary 13:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozIQpOq ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby C.J.W. on Wed May 02, 2018 5:56 pm

This is good material for people who are new to IMA or with backgrounds in other fighting arts. Most of the things he demonstrates and the ideas he talks about are fine, except for the last chair demo: leaning forward into the opponent also counts as weight shift.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby nicklinjm on Fri May 04, 2018 9:29 pm

Great video, thanks for posting. Wish there had been a video like this around when I was starting out in IMA, some of the concepts he talks about (neijin is different to structure, all jin all the time) are concepts that have only become clear to me in the last couple of years! Forrest has come a long way since his neijia list days ;)
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 12:27 am

More trickery than jin. I really hate how people use the word jin nowadays.

marvin8 wrote:1. sink the qi 1:25


Just small shifts of leverage accompanied with good balance. No qi or jin necessary. It looks very impressive but pretty easy to teach and learn.

2. the dantian moves 4:19


The belly moves, what he shows has nothing to do with the Dantian. The Dantian is a small spot inside of the body, if it moves or not can not be shown from outside. Probably it moves together with the external movements, but it’s certainly not the center of the movement.

3. jin is not structure 5:48


He clearly connects the structure from foot to the ground. Not with jin or qi. He just keeps the physical alignment.

4. connection 7:40


Good display of whole body connection

5. winding 9:48


What he does is pulling the guy in and over the balance point. Maybe he use the stored winding energy/movement to unwind. Hard to tell. Too short display of winding, there’s a whole lot more interesting aspects to show and tell.

6. Radio KJIN (was long power is short power) 11:05


Pretty good explanation about how the body mechanics are the same. Nothing to complain about.

7. rotation and weight shift not necessary 13:57


Advantage of leverage and angle. Not qi or jin. Just leaning. Anyone can do it.

Agree with CJW.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 05, 2018 1:10 am

Nice find! I think this video should be 'required reading' for people before they start talking about Qi and Jin here. It would save so much time and arguments.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 2:21 am

All of these should be easy for anyone who has trained a little like he says. Some I dont think are demonstrating the thing he says they are (winding) but many are the most basic things.

I think the problem with this video is that it is showing results of someone who has trained... he says this. But you can tell from even the students in the video that these things will be chased by them as a goal not a result.

Maybe these trick would be worth checking once a year?

The 'jin' is not structure" for instance, what he is doing is fine, it is very easy and very basic... but has inherent problems if it is focused on.

I have seen many demos like this where someone holds a point of contact under moderate pressure still and moves their body around behind it, in fact I remember mikhail ryabko showing just this in a seminar I attended. But as force increases (as it does in a fight) this concept breaks down and one side of the body empties out and becomes light as the line to the earth begins to deal with increasing forces. This can be seen in the most staunch advocates of this approach videos, and I have yet to see anything, from anywhere, where this is not the case.

This basic idea of handling load should be moved beyond as fast as possible, once connection is achieved imo. But as the video quite rightly points out should be very easy for anyone with a bit if training

I am glad he calls it a trick in the video.

The belly moves, what he shows has nothing to do with the Dantian. The Dantian is a small spot inside of the body, if it moves or not can not be shown from outside. Probably it moves together with the external movements, but it’s certainly not the center of the movement.


There are long established IMA traditions that would disagree with you. I can think of a number of tai chi, Xing yi, xinyi and ba gua lines that maintain both the 'rotation of Dan tien' (belly, pelvic floor, diaphram and lumbar spine egg etc co-ordinate in movement) and the 'single point' models.

Overall, the words at the start are more important than what is shown. He says openly that anyone with training you showed this too would look a big confused and a bit 'yeh... and so what???' ... maybe that's how we should be viewing it.

Good video for that nugget if nothing else.

Thanks
Last edited by middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 05, 2018 3:11 am

One Jin

I don't think it's worth arguing about what he's showing, or how he's somehow cheating in what are already called "tricks" :) - you either get it or you don't really. But there is another thing that's worth pointing out that he doesn't explicitly state, but which should be obvious - there's one jin.

All the early books on Tai Chi that came out in the 80s started listing all these different Jin, and I think that's lead to a lot of misunderstanding that they are all separate things - when in reality there is one Jin in Chinese martial arts, and lots of ways of using it.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sat May 05, 2018 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 4:20 am

I agree with you, about one jin too.

I don't think he is cheating I think he is showing results of his training. Like I say I really like what he says at the start.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 05, 2018 4:44 am

Hang on, aren't you on your honeymoon? Why are you posting on RSF?!?!?!?
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 7:21 am

GrahamB wrote:Nice find! I think this video should be 'required reading' for people before they start talking about Qi and Jin here. It would save so much time and arguments.


Thought that most people here already had watched it. Forrest has created an FB group about it and similar stuff, “Neijin training methods and Stupid Jin Tricks”, but it has turned secret so if you want to join, I can add you to it. Not extremely active, but interesting.

when in reality there is one Jin in Chinese martial arts, and lots of ways of using it.


Here I see many different things and I can not find any common factor. No one single jin here.

middleway wrote: There are long established IMA traditions that would disagree with you. I can think of a number of tai chi, Xing yi, xinyi and ba gua lines that maintain both the 'rotation of Dan tien' (belly, pelvic floor, diaphram and lumbar spine egg etc co-ordinate in movement) and the 'single point' models.


Some people saying that what they do has something to do with the Dantian never understood the Dantian concept in the first place. And sometimes terms and characters are used in a specific context that is different or outside the common or outside the original use. This is fine as well as long people use it inside their specific group and as long as they don’t try to tell everyone else that their way of using the term is the correct one. Xinyi has their way of using the term. Chen style Tai Chi use it together with other terms to create other concepts. It’s all fine with me as long as they don’t speak about Dantian in general terms.
Last edited by Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 10:27 am

Hang on, aren't you on your honeymoon? Why are you posting on RSF?!?!?!?


Let it never be said I'm not committed if nothing else :) (I am back now :p)
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 10:31 am

This is fine as well as long people use it inside their specific group and as long as they don’t try to tell everyone else that their way of using the term is the correct one


Wait .... isn't tha precisely what you are doing??

what he shows has nothing to do with the Dantian
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby Bao on Sat May 05, 2018 11:34 am

middleway wrote:
This is fine as well as long people use it inside their specific group and as long as they don’t try to tell everyone else that their way of using the term is the correct one


Wait .... isn't tha precisely what you are doing??

what he shows has nothing to do with the Dantian


But my definition IS the correct one... :P



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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby middleway on Sat May 05, 2018 12:01 pm

;) :P
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Re: Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks

Postby Overlord on Sat May 05, 2018 7:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:profesorbooty
Uploaded on Jun 19, 2017

Forrest Chang's Famous Stupid Jin Tricks:

1. sink the qi 1:25
2. the dantian moves 4:19
3. jin is not structure 5:48
4. connection 7:40
5. winding 9:48
6. Radio KJIN (was long power is short power) 11:05
7. rotation and weight shift not necessary 13:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozIQpOq ... e=youtu.be


Just to clarify I had seen slow Muaythai kick with tremendous power~
What he says is not true.
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