Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 1:09 am

willie wrote:[
EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE.

When you write it like that it kind of look as a wavelength, you're maybe on to something after all 8-)
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 1:22 am

windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...

Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.

Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Franklin on Sun May 20, 2018 1:53 am

Subitai wrote:
Franklin wrote:
Subitai wrote:I don't have a problem with what Peter is doing in the video above...I've been doing my own "Empty Coat" version (to a degree) for almost 20yrs now.

The problem occurs (as it does in many things) when you attempt to do something 100% of the time. If you do something TOO MUCH it can be perceived as a pattern and therefore telegraphed. But I believe it is useful when used properly and sparingly.

The part I disagree with Peter is that he calls it Leading. I think that's incorrect...what he's doing is following the same direction. He perceives which direction a push is going and he follows it in the same direction. That is "FOLLOW" not "Leading".

LEADING IMO, would mean PETER picks the direction he wants the move and his opponent would willingly or unknowingly follow it. AGAIN, it can't be done indefinitely...but it can be used strategically.

- When a boxer leans his head away in the same direction path as a jab to his face (literally it can miss by barely an Inch or less) he's doing the same "Empty Coat". I.e. the skill of following the same direction.

* That's my whole thing...because at that point his arm IS LONG or Extended. It's the best time to counter if you know what you're doing.

- wrestlers do it all the time when a guy takes a shot for a takedown and they respond with a sprawl. Or If a guy tries to push or tie up HIGH, it can be emptied and ducked under for a take down. Again, that is following the same direction your opponent is attacking you and allowing thier energy to empty out.



from my understanding of his work-
based on what I know from working out with some of my friends who learned from him..

what you are describing as empty coat is just getting out of the way...

the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through

and as he comes through that door
you follow
and then lead him where you want him to go...
(its not always a dramatic direction change - but is a bit subtle)

so its not just following his movement


I appreciate your answer...but that's NOT what i'm seeing IMO. To follow is not just getting out of the way, it is to go the same direction.

Yes, I might be getting out of the way....but it IS FOLLOWING ONLY in the same direction as the attack. Hence my saying..."The way into danger is the way out" and vice versa. If it were just get out of the way...it could be ANY direction...but again it's not.

You said:
the leading comes in --
before the opponent even comes to strike
you open only the door you want him to come through


To me that is "attack by Draw"....which is by definition to leave something open to entice your opponent to take the bait.

- I can point out the time segment perfectly where all he is doing is waiting to see which direction or how hes being attacked and THEN HE "FOLLOWS" IT.
- You can skip to ~ 8:30sec

Also, if you're going to tell me that he's leaving his hand out and that he's waiting for me to push it..."AND THEN HE'S GOING TO GET OUT OF THE WAY"...haha, that is still not leading IMO.

1st, that won't work on me or any good player...if you do not stop me by either parrying or blocking...I will not chase hands. I will just attack your center.
2nd, if you get out of my way, (IN THE SAME DIRECTION) then you are following me.

Lastly, think about it deeply...the word "LEADING" would imply that you move 1st.(which again, is not what he's doing) If the principle is: "If you don't move, I don't move" How can he lead? He can ONLY follow.

His choice, if HE wants to call it Leading... Of course he can. It's HIS term, he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying I don't aggree with his choice of definition.




I am not going to argue with you...
I am not really invested in what he does or what you do...

i only have second hand exposure to what he teaches
but i learned lots of good stuff from it..

so disclaimer-- i don't represent him -- or what he does..
this is all just my opinion based on very limited exposure to the practice (and that being second hand through some of my friends and training partners almost 20 years ago)


as to the leading / following thing..
this is one of those things that is easier to talk about then to do...
in that - it should look like you are following him
but you are actually leading him
if he feels that you are leading- then he will break and do something else or change/transform into something else..

and the leading starts far away from actual contact

and those basic 2 person drills/games --
or what he calls cheng hsin tui shou (which seems to me to be a blend of taiji, aikido, and bagua stepping, with some judo throws)
are just a way to start to to feel and play with this...

the clip is about leading roll back

the way i learned it--
its a 2 person game/drill

you present your arm
and your partner goes to push it..
but you don't let him connect to it or if he does you don't let him put any force on it
and you shift back and turn - leading him into emptiness..

<-- edit -->
what he shows at 8:30 int he clip-
seems to be a variation
where he took the hand away- and presented the shoulder
then shifted and turned from that conection
--- end edit-->

but your partner should feel that he almost has the push
and because of that he keeps going just that little inch more because he knows he has you
but really you are leading him
if he feels you are leading him - instead of him feeling he has got you- he will change into something else

so the way i learned the drill
is just a way to play with this connection...

similar to the goal with some of the aikido paired practice
where if you look from the outside- it doesn't make sense
(and it also doesn't help that many people don't do it correctly)
but i am talking about where the partner grabs the guys wrist and then is led all around and then finally thrown..
seems BS..
but the goal of that partner practice (at least the way i learned)
is similar...
when the partner grabs your wrist -- you have to lead him in a manner in which he still feels like he has you
or that if he just goes one more millimeter he has you..
otherwise he will just let go...

but both of them are just drill for working on something...
and are cooperative...

fighting is fighting
drills are drill...

even skilled people get knocked out by basic punches...


Franklin


edit--

ps-- have you ever read any of peter ralston's books??
i don't think you want to get sucked into a war of semantics with this guy...
lol
Last edited by Franklin on Sun May 20, 2018 2:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 1:55 am

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...

Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.

Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?


I don't think most people understand how to adjust to the intent of the opponent or listen the intent of movements. Most people understand some sort of way to adjust to movement itself, but they don't connect to the center or to the balance of the opponent and most people are certainly not aware of of how to adjust to his or her intent. You can see this clearly when most people play push hands. Instead they wait for a physical moment where they can apply a certain technique or method.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sun May 20, 2018 2:07 am

Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?



If it was there wouldn't be so many questioning what Adam does in his clips they would know.

What bao. said ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 20, 2018 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby willie on Sun May 20, 2018 2:07 am

Trick wrote:
willie wrote:[
EEEEEMMMMMPPPPPTTTTYYYYYYY FFFFFFFOOOOOORRRRCCCCCEEEEEEE.

When you write it like that it kind of look as a wavelength, you're maybe on to something after all 8-)

Nah I'm just giving him back some crap. He very foolishly decided to disrespect me my teacher and my teachers teacher and then he embarrasses himself by posting videos of musical chairs and talking about things like empty Force. He needs to humble himself.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 3:32 am

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?



If it was there wouldn't be so many questioning what Adam does in his clips they would know.

What bao. said ;)

But a well timed counter/attack at an opponents intent does not have to take the show of empty force kind of force?
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 3:41 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
As some have mentioned it kinda depends on ones idea and practice of ph hands...

Their ting jin, is really not real or maybe it would be better to say tuned to the wrong thing....they should listen for the intent of movement
not the movement itself. If they can do this, it allows for them to keep central equilibrium while the other loses theirs.
.

Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?


I don't think most people understand how to adjust to the intent of the opponent or listen the intent of movements. Most people understand some sort of way to adjust to movement itself, but they don't connect to the center or to the balance of the opponent and most people are certainly not aware of of how to adjust to his or her intent. You can see this clearly when most people play push hands. Instead they wait for a physical moment where they can apply a certain technique or method.

I don't think so when it comes to long time pushhanders, I think they very much goes after the others intent, but yes if you mean beginners I agree but if persistent the beginner will also come to know, practice makes perfect 8-)
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sun May 20, 2018 3:53 am

Trick wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
Isn't this a common understanding of the goal of PH?



If it was there wouldn't be so many questioning what Adam does in his clips they would know.

What bao. said ;)

But a well timed counter/attack at an opponents intent does not have to take the show of empty force kind of force?



Aside from the Kong Jin, you mention counter-attacking a person's intent can you explain what you mean by this.

How do you feel this would be or could be done.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 5:07 am

You have sparred/ fought a lot during MA career, so you know well about the art of timing. I'm not good with words so describing the higher sense of timing is not a thing for me to do, but as I said a lot of sparring will get you there
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 5:48 am

I don't think so when it comes to long time pushhanders, I think they very much goes after the others intent,


Well, you said that it was the common understanding and I disagreed.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Sun May 20, 2018 5:56 am

Trick wrote:You have sparred/ fought a lot during MA career, so you know well about the art of timing. I'm not good with words so describing the higher sense of timing is not a thing for me to do, but as I said a lot of sparring will get you there


Yes I have during my young yrs, which why I can say this is very different and why I asked.
If the normal training would get one there it would be common knowledge we would have basis for discussion.


With out this, as seen in the preceding post a lot of assumptions are being made based on "sparing" ect. feeling this is the same.
For some and me its not...

Notice that those who feel its different tend to agree with each other although we might use different verbiage.

The basic underling points are the same.....in principle. With out this commonality I too find it hard to put to words...

The clip of Peter Ralston he demoed using a chair, the clip that was mocked,
talked about the intent to move and the action of movement itself.

The OP posted clips and asked about wu wei which I take to mean getting out of the way of the process allowing it to happen.
Which is what Adam talks about in some of the clips posted.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Interloper on Sun May 20, 2018 7:24 am

willie wrote:Hi Cady, I think that Bao is much closer to the correct interpretation.
I was taught by my first Yang style teacher that that act of non doing is simply realizing that the properties or a natural state of something will automatically solve the problem in many cases. If you evaluate the natural condition of a young tree branch, the tree branch has a quality known as flexibility or pliability. In short it bends to the force and is unharmed. The same as if a blade of grass stands up to a hurricane and survives unarmed. It is also an act of no-mind and not being emotionally involved in the situation, Only the natural Properties or qualities. It has really nothing to do with what Adam is doing or the other videos that windwalker so kindly provided.


Hi willie,
Thanks, yes, that makes sense. It also bears the implication that the body -must- be conditioned, in order to respond "naturally" in this way. We spend years developing our body quality through focused training, so that our developed body can respond without having to arduously and consciously "do something." We are already "there," and it is our state of being.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Interloper on Sun May 20, 2018 7:26 am

Bao wrote:@Interloper, I looked up an old article in black belt mag about Tai Chi and mushin, thought you might be interested.

https://books.google.se/books?id=r9kDAA ... nd&f=false


I just saw this, Bao. Thanks!
Last edited by Interloper on Sun May 20, 2018 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wu Wei — Teaching moments with Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 7:52 am

Bao wrote:
I don't think so when it comes to long time pushhanders, I think they very much goes after the others intent,


Well, you said that it was the common understanding and I disagreed.

Well, there is a question mark in that previous quote you made from me, so it was not a statement.
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