Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:32 pm

Windwalker,

Speaking from my experience in the lineage, not necessarily of Yang Wenhu, who I've never met. The shenfa in the videos of his later years is exactly the same as the bigger shenfa used to build gongfu that's shown in the OP. Sometimes the bigger shenfa is used in application, but more often it's the smaller version. So yes, it can be used very quickly, but whether big or small, fast or slow, in my experience it's driven by the opponent's energy rather than somebody deciding to wind up and do-- whatever, as is usually shown in demonstrations involving visible shenfa and/or fajin. If the method is incomplete (including solo and partner work) or misunderstood, then of course it won't work as well as it might.

You yourself have posted videos of things that are not readily apparent from the outside to the uninitiated, so I'm not sure why you might expect that others' practices would be any different. And like your own shared videos, no one to my knowledge has been convinced of much of anything when viewing things they do not understand. For the most part, we all just talk a bunch of shit about things we know nothing of, and ignore the comments of those who have direct experience, assuming that their experiences are somehow lesser than our own.

The best we can hope for is to help an inquisitive mind start to understand that it's a big, wide world out there, and there "are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:36 pm

Bao wrote:...but many could teach how to build a good foundation.


I disagree with this. The big thing that is lacking in most TCMA, not just taiji, is a legitimate and comprehensive set of foundational trainings in both solo and partner work that allow all the other stuff to actually work. Most of what we see online is, in my opinion, either obfuscation or an attempt to make up for the lack of real jibengong.

I would suggest that a good foundation is among the rarest of things to find in any martial art training outside of MMA (which is sport specific and a direct result of competition pressure).
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:13 pm

Bhassler wrote:Windwalker,

Speaking from my experience in the lineage, not necessarily of Yang Wenhu, who I've never met. The shenfa in the videos of his later years is exactly the same as the bigger shenfa used to build gongfu that's shown in the OP. Sometimes the bigger shenfa is used in application, but more often it's the smaller version. So yes, it can be used very quickly, but whether big or small, fast or slow, in my experience it's driven by the opponent's energy rather than somebody deciding to wind up and do-- whatever, as is usually shown in demonstrations involving visible shenfa and/or fajin. If the method is incomplete (including solo and partner work) or misunderstood, then of course it won't work as well as it might.

Thanks for your reply. My experience is a little different with this..just wondered what others thought.

You yourself have posted videos of things that are not readily apparent from the outside to the uninitiated, so I'm not sure why you might expect that others' practices would be any different. And like your own shared videos, no one to my knowledge has been convinced of much of anything when viewing things they do not understand. I don't, I'm not asking to be convinced just wondered what others thought and why they feel so. You offered a good reasoned view point based on your experiences. appreciated ;)

For the most part, we all just talk a bunch of shit about things we know nothing of, and ignore the comments of those who have direct experience, assuming that their experiences are somehow lesser than our own. I don't or try not to although it may not come out well in this medium, just wondered what others thought, and yes I do understand the point of what hes showing but do not really agree with it...As mentioned all CMA styles express what is called fa-jin using different methods

The best we can hope for is to help an inquisitive mind start to understand that it's a big, wide world out there, and there "are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


I find its good to maintain and inquisitive objective open mind, regardless of ones own experiences
yep its a big world....I should mention as I did that I often ask this question to taiji stylist that I met regardless of style...more often then not they can not move in the same manor very quickly. Lots of reasons for this...not really the point of this post..
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:20 pm

Bhassler wrote:
I would suggest that a good foundation is among the rarest of things to find in any martial art training outside of MMA (which is sport specific and a direct result of competition pressure).


Very much agree with this. It really depends on a persons inner clarity in their practice.
Lots of teachers teach as they do because of the students, its what they expect...teachers need to teach to eat....

A famous chen stylist teacher a friend of mine met once remarked when asked about why he didnt teach a certain way.

"because its not what they want or expect so I dont teach it that way"
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:22 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Bao wrote:...but many could teach how to build a good foundation.


I disagree with this. The big thing that is lacking in most TCMA, not just taiji, is a legitimate and comprehensive set of foundational trainings in both solo and partner work that allow all the other stuff to actually work. Most of what we see online is, in my opinion, either obfuscation or an attempt to make up for the lack of real jibengong.

I would suggest that a good foundation is among the rarest of things to find in any martial art training outside of MMA (which is sport specific and a direct result of competition pressure).


Agree with that it's very rare, but still there are some different teachers to choose between. Also, lack of jibengong is not the same as "not making things work". Both are needed but even more rare to find someone who can teach both a strong foundation and teach how to make things work. Here I agree 100% that this is probably one of the rarest things to find. Anyway, good guidance in jibengong doesn't need to cost a fortune.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:32 pm

windwalker wrote:Its a simple question can he move the same way quickly..I would ask the same question of any taiji stylist regardless of style, in person I often do.
More often then not regardless of style most can not..I find that interesting confirming what I feel about different movement patterns.

I don't think he can, others might, which is the point of asking a question. . . .

Its a discussion board for discussion different viewpoints . I asked a simple question

Can he move like that quickly, to someone who felt his movement was pretty good.
Seeking to understand "their" view point not prove mine, regardless of my own and experiences

negativity or positivity does not enter into the question.....


Bhassler wrote:Speaking from my experience in the lineage, not necessarily of Yang Wenhu, who I've never met. The shenfa in the videos of his later years is exactly the same as the bigger shenfa used to build gongfu that's shown in the OP. Sometimes the bigger shenfa is used in application, but more often it's the smaller version. So yes, it can be used very quickly, but whether big or small, fast or slow, in my experience it's driven by the opponent's energy rather than somebody deciding to wind up and do-- whatever, as is usually shown in demonstrations involving visible shenfa and/or fajin. If the method is incomplete (including solo and partner work) or misunderstood, then of course it won't work as well as it might.

Windwalker's question is logical. As windwalker says it's neither negativity or positivity. Not an argument. I do not see the use or effects of "shenfa" in the following videos. However, I do see body movement that any other good EMAist displays. I believe these are rigged fights: more of a demonstration. If anyone knows where shenfa is used, maybe they can timestamp it.

Chuck Yuen , Dr.TCM & Cantonese Martial Arts NYC
Published on Feb 28, 2014

Chen Jian Qiang of Chen Village Tai Chi Group China:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyJfyVKZdpk

lily lily
Published on Jul 23, 2015

2010 Chen Tai Chi combat.
Chen ziqiang is the nephew of grandmaster Chen Xiaowang,he learnt Chen Tai Chi from Chen Xiaowang . Chen Xiaowang is one of "Four Buddha Warrior Attendants" greatest grandmasters of Chen Tai Chi. Chen ziqiang had practised Chen Tai Chi for 29 years.
Zhang Yanfei, practised Tai Chi 9 years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk-OITQqHP8
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenHu (very wriggly).

Postby I-mon on Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:49 pm

charles wrote:More recent:





Thanks Charles.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:48 pm

marvin8 wrote:Windwalker's question is logical. As windwalker says it's neither negativity or positivity. Not an argument. I do not see the use or effects of "shenfa" in the following videos. However, I do see body movement that any other good EMAist displays. I believe these are rigged fights: more of a demonstration. If anyone knows where shenfa is used, maybe they can timestamp it.


The methods and shenfa in the CZK lineage are not the same as what is currently represented as the village lineage. I'm not saying better or worse, but definitely different. So, from that perspective, there is nothing to be gleaned from the posted videos of fights from representatives of the village style, whether staged or otherwise, as it relates to the video in the OP.

Other folks are welcome to agree or disagree with this statement as they see fit, but as we've been down this road before on RSF, I'll just throw that out there as my opinion and leave it at that.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Overlord on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:23 pm

charles wrote:More recent:





Nice!!
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