Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:18 am

Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:Melania teaches us not to be internet bullies.


Not a very good teacher when she cannot teach her husband... :-\ :P

Bao, I think that you just nailed it. I think that I'll try to explain to you why we are having all these arguments. It's because of the status quo. In the past people have gotten away will just throwing anything out there as far as technical information and they have created followers of that information. However, the information was faulty. So now of course there's going to be arguments because it's the only way back to the original. The original is Chen. Many people on this board don't see eye-to-eye with Chen Style. They have faulty information. Yang when he was powerful, was Chen. The fajin that is understood by the majority of the Yang stylist probably comes from someone like Adam Mizner. Adam appears to be pretty good, but his understanding is not in accordance to my understanding and because my understanding comes from a higher level source well I think you know the end of that statement. I have made it no secret that I am no longer interested in Yang Style. The reasons are that because of my higher level training of the past few years I have found out first hand that most of the prejudice that is so common amongst Yang stylist ended up being nothing more than a bunch of falsehoods and lies. There is one exception that I think I should mention. I like Ian Sinclair's Yang Style. His Chen is not quite right but he has the right flavor. He's probably one of the greats in Yang Style
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:42 pm

willie wrote:I like Ian Sinclair's Yang Style. His Chen is not quite right but he has the right flavor. He's probably one of the greats in Yang Style


Well, good to know you like something called Yang....

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Then I know what level you consider high level. And, as I already had figured out, you haven't met any high level Yang practitioners.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:03 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:I like Ian Sinclair's Yang Style. His Chen is not quite right but he has the right flavor. He's probably one of the greats in Yang Style


Well, good to know you like something called Yang....

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Then I know what level you consider high level. And, as I already had figured out, you haven't met any high level Yang practitioners.

Well I'm glad that you said that. So now I get to ask you the next question, so I haven't met any good Yang stylist huh? Interesting assumption, unfortunately it's incorrect, but I will give you the floor anyways. So who do you consider to be a great Yang stylist? I heard you mention CC Chen several times during conversations. You are aware of the fact that c.c. Chen uses kickboxing to fight, correct?
You seem to have gotten yourself in a bit of a pickle my friend, because my yang style teacher was quite good...
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby charles on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:32 pm

willie wrote:I think that I'll try to explain to you why we are having all these arguments. It's because of the status quo.



I think that I will try to explain to you what we are having all these arguments. It's because of peoples' ego and myopia.

If I state that mine is the only correct understanding because my teacher is the best and he studied with the best who is a direct descendent of the best, and, since you didn't pay a lot of money to study with my teacher you are just plain wrong and delusional. That leaves no room for meaningful interaction. The choices that one has in response to that are pretty limited:

1. "That's nice for you". ::)
2. You're wrong. :P
3. Prove it. >:(

The first is dismissive, the second argumentative and the third confrontational. None of those open the door to meaningful, civil discourse.

Wisdom should teach one that there is always someone better. If you do everything just right, even the best are only the best until they are superseded by someone who is better. They will eventually be superseded too. Not truly believing that eliminates any possibility of humility and the hint of the awareness that maybe, just maybe, I'm just like everyone else in mistakingly believing that I know The Real Deal when I don't.

Then there's the epistemological argument to which Graham alluded: how do you know that yours is the best? Simply repeating that it is, over and over and over again doesn't make it so. On the other hand, sharing what you know, freely, with others prompts others to appreciate what you know and to recognize that you know something. It's a focus on giving and sharing, rather than taking and receiving. It is being generous rather than stingy.

Then there is the statement that the style I practice is the best, the only true one and the original one: style wars. This comes up over and over and over again. It is a non-starter. I, personally, have met (a very few) very skilled practitioners in Yang, Wu and Chen styles. (There probably are very skilled practitioners in Sun and Hao styles, but I haven't met them.) The idea that The Style is what is superior, or one style is better than another, doesn't hold water and never did. Individual practitioners are better or worse than other individual practitioners: it isn't about what style they practice, but, rather, how well they practice it, what skills they have developed and what skills they want to develop. All saying, "My style is better than yours" does is create division and discord and reveals that the person who said it hasn't understood the distinction between style and skills.

Then there is recognizing that different people enter into an activity for different reasons. I'm a classically trained musician that plays the guitar. Most guitar players are musically illiterate and are proud of it - they don't want no stinkin' theory and don't need to know how to read no music. Regardless, they find satisfaction in playing at whatever level they play: few aspire to be concert musicians, Segovia, for example. Similarly, people practice Taijiquan for all sorts of reasons: not all of them want to be a Yang Luchan or a Chen Fake and find satisfaction in practicing at whatever level they practice. Repeatedly telling people that their practice is wrong and watered-down is irrelevant and an affront if their practice takes them where they want to go and provides the satisfaction they seek: it's baiting people into an argument. Wiser practitioners won't take the bait.

If one looks through this and other recent threads, there are numerous people involved in these behaviours: it isn't one person, but rather the collective culture that people here have fuelled to become what it is now. Be better. Strive to have meaningful conversation. As mothers used to say, "If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". They had a good reason for saying that: to maintain civil interaction. Human nature and civil interaction with other humans isn't something that just got invented, though it appears, these days, that many of the lessons learned about it have been forgotten.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Giles on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:46 pm

A very nice posting, Charles. I'll try to take what you say to heart and focus more strongly (or with a little more self-discipline) on constructive exchange and not get drawn into destructive personal statements or exchanges. However tempted I might feel sometimes. It really doesn't go anywhere and just takes up valuable life energy.
:)
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:58 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote:I think that I'll try to explain to you why we are having all these arguments. It's because of the status quo.



I think that I will try to explain to you what we are having all these arguments. It's because of peoples' ego and myopia.

If I state that mine is the only correct understanding because my teacher is the best and he studied with the best who is a direct descendent of the best, and, since you didn't pay a lot of money to study with my teacher you are just plain wrong and delusional. That leaves no room for meaningful interaction. The choices that one has in response to that are pretty limited:

1. "That's nice for you". ::)
2. You're wrong. :P
3. Prove it. >:(

The first is dismissive, the second argumentative and the third confrontational. None of those open the door to meaningful, civil discourse.

Wisdom should teach one that there is always someone better. If you do everything just right, even the best are only the best until they are superseded by someone who is better. They will eventually be superseded too. Not truly believing that eliminates any possibility of humility and the hint of the awareness that maybe, just maybe, I'm just like everyone else in mistakingly believing that I know The Real Deal when I don't.

Then there's the epistemological argument to which Graham alluded: how do you know that yours is the best? Simply repeating that it is, over and over and over again doesn't make it so. On the other hand, sharing what you know, freely, with others prompts others to appreciate what you know and to recognize that you know something. It's a focus on giving and sharing, rather than taking and receiving. It is being generous rather than stingy.

Then there is the statement that the style I practice is the best, the only true one and the original one: style wars. This comes up over and over and over again. It is a non-starter. I, personally, have met (a very few) very skilled practitioners in Yang, Wu and Chen styles. (There probably are very skilled practitioners in Sun and Hao styles, but I haven't met them.) The idea that The Style is what is superior, or one style is better than another, doesn't hold water and never did. Individual practitioners are better or worse than other individual practitioners: it isn't about what style they practice, but, rather, how well they practice it, what skills they have developed and what skills they want to develop. All saying, "My style is better than yours" does is create division and discord and reveals that the person who said it hasn't understood the distinction between style and skills.

Then there is recognizing that different people enter into an activity for different reasons. I'm a classically trained musician that plays the guitar. Most guitar players are musically illiterate and are proud of it - they don't want no stinkin' theory and don't need to know how to read no music. Regardless, they find satisfaction in playing at whatever level they play: few aspire to be concert musicians, Segovia, for example. Similarly, people practice Taijiquan for all sorts of reasons: not all of them want to be a Yang Luchan or a Chen Fake and find satisfaction in practicing at whatever level they practice. Repeatedly telling people that their practice is wrong and watered-down is irrelevant and an affront if their practice takes them where they want to go and provides the satisfaction they seek: it's baiting people into an argument. Wiser practitioners won't take the bait.

If one looks through this and other recent threads, there are numerous people involved in these behaviours: it isn't one person, but rather the collective culture that people here have fuelled to become what it is now. Be better. Strive to have meaningful conversation. As mothers used to say, "If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything". They had a good reason for saying that: to maintain civil interaction. Human nature and civil interaction with other humans isn't something that just got invented, though it appears, these days, that many of the lessons learned about it have been forgotten.

Okay Charles, I get your point about the music, it has some relevant sense.

Do you know what a fugazi is?

In my post, I try to be as honest and forthcoming as I can in order to help and I repeat help others to understand what they may be looking for. Someone needs to be there to counter a lot of the Miss information that's out there.
Why would I make this statement?

How do you think that someone would feel if they had paid a lot of money for instruction and then went to a wang Hai jun seminar and found out that every damn thing that they had was incorrect? They were sold, in affect, a Fugazi.
So using your analogy, they should just be happy with a fake?

Charles I really don't think that that's the best option at this point. I don't know if you've noticed or not but the art is failing
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:29 pm

Willie, I don't want to get too personal and speak too much about people either it's about people who I know or I don't know. Everyone is deserved respect and people who don't like publicity should also be respected.

About Mr W CC Chen, he taught my first Tai Chi teacher some very powerful yet relaxed methods and also taught very detailed mechanics. I have had very good use of what I was taught second hand. There is no kick-boxing or anything similar that could be found in these methods, it's just good Tai Chi. Mr Chen is not one I would bring forward as a favourite Yang stylist, but I have the utmost respect for him and his Tai Chi.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:44 pm

Bao wrote:Willie, I don't want to get too personal and speak too much about people either it's about people who I know or I don't know. Everyone is deserved respect and people who don't like publicity should also be respected.

About Mr W CC Chen, he taught my first Tai Chi teacher some very powerful yet relaxed methods and also taught very detailed mechanics. I have had very good use of what I was taught second hand. There is no kick-boxing or anything similar that could be found in these methods, it's just good Tai Chi. Mr Chen is not one I would bring forward as a favourite Yang stylist, but I have the utmost respect for him and his Tai Chi.

Actually, again you had said that I have not ever met a high-level Yang stylist correct? I think that I told you in this board that my first Yang style teacher was quite good, correct? He got some of his body mechanics directly from William c.c. Chen. I am aware of their Tai Chi. I also went there and met William c.c. Chen in person about 15 years ago. They use a kick boxing Style. They do not use a traditional Yang style Tai Chi for fighting.
I personally asked William c.c. Chen why he insisted that I personally have my hands up like a boxer would. He said to me that means "me" directly
" because you may be kicked in the head ".
I have no problem with you stating your position, but incorrectly stating that I have not met a high-level Yang style player and putting that out on a public board is not acceptable.

My old Yang style teacher was quite good Bao, but even he is no match for Wang hai jun and still nowhere close to my teacher.

I want to put it into perspective for you and hopefully for the last time. There is a member of this board Who challenged my old Yang style teacher to a match in a legitimate fighting MMA gym who fights out of Mohegan Sun. They were unable to handle him.
So please stop making incorrect statements.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:56 pm

willie wrote:I have no problem with you stating your position, but incorrectly stating that I have not met a high-level Yang style player and putting that out on a public board is not acceptable.


Now you have said that you don’t agree. I hear you. I might be wrong, we all make mistakes... I have no clue who your Tai Chi teacher is.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby charles on Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:24 pm

willie wrote: I don't know if you've noticed or not but the art is failing


I don't know if you've noticed or not, but your lone attempts to bring the art to its past glory aren't working.

You don't seem to see the connection between paying big bucks for The Secrets, keeping them secret and "the art failing". Let's suppose that you are getting The Best and are developing The Best skills. Since you aren't willing to teach what you have learned, or even share it in any meaningful way on a martial arts forum, just how is the art going to be saved if no one is willing to teach it in such a way that it doesn't fail?

How does belittling everything that everyone else does keep the art from failing? Suppose everyone believes that you and your teacher, and his teacher are the only keepers of The Real Deal. You've stated you aren't willing to teach it, no one knows who your teacher is. So what practical good does it do for all of the wrong practitioners in the world to know that what they are doing is wrong if there is no mechanism for them to learn what is right? Should all of the millions of wrong practitioners out there go to Wang Haijun? Is this all about pimping WHJ? No one else in the world has "real" traditional Taijiquan skills? No one but you, your teacher and his teacher?


History has taught us that any "living" art changes with the times. Those that don't often die. They die because they lose relevance to modern peoples. Arts are changed by people, by cultures, so that that art retains its relevance to changes in times - cultures, norms, customs... The art of Taijiquan has changed and continues to change: it now is many different things to many different people. You cling to one particular definition of the art, one that has very largely been superseded. Attempting to force that particular definition of the art onto everyone else is rather like tilting at windmills. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it should come as no surprise to you that the world doesn't really pay too much attention to how you - or I - think it should be.
Last edited by charles on Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:50 pm

nice post Charles. ;)

"living" art changes with the times. Those that don't often die. They die because they lose relevance to modern peoples."

In China at least IME.

Often what is valued is not publicly shown, the teachers very much aware of what they have
would rather not then see it misused or tarnished. One has to earn the right...
may be a little old fashion, not everything can be bought with money.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:23 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote: I don't know if you've noticed or not but the art is failing


I don't know if you've noticed or not, but your lone attempts to bring the art to its past glory aren't working.

You don't seem to see the connection between paying big bucks for The Secrets, keeping them secret and "the art failing". Let's suppose that you are getting The Best and are developing The Best skills. Since you aren't willing to teach what you have learned, or even share it in any meaningful way on a martial arts forum, just how is the art going to be saved if no one is willing to teach it in such a way that it doesn't fail?

How does belittling everything that everyone else does keep the art from failing? Suppose everyone believes that you and your teacher, and his teacher are the only keepers of The Real Deal. You've stated you aren't willing to teach it, no one knows who your teacher is. So what practical good does it do for all of the wrong practitioners in the world to know that what they are doing is wrong if there is no mechanism for them to learn what is right? Should all of the millions of wrong practitioners out there go to Wang Haijun? Is this all about pimping WHJ? No one else in the world has "real" traditional Taijiquan skills?

Interesting. How do you mistakenly identify being corrected with belittling?
Well one thing is for sure is that your right, it's not working. I guess that's what makes me different. I have the abilitie to humble myself to superiors, others don't. I appreciate being corrected, others hate it and despise the people who try to help them. At first, I didn't like being corrected either, but if you hang in there long enough you will get the results and understand why things have to be the way that they are. No I do not pimp out whj or anyone else. I must say that he is quite perfect in his movement though.
Last edited by willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby charles on Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:33 pm

windwalker wrote:Often what is valued is not publicly shown, the teachers very much aware of what they have
would rather not then see it misused or tarnished. One has to earn the right...
may be a little old fashion, not everything can be bought with money.


Yes, you’re right, there’s that.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby willie on Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:16 pm

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:Often what is valued is not publicly shown, the teachers very much aware of what they have
would rather not then see it misused or tarnished. One has to earn the right...
may be a little old fashion, not everything can be bought with money.


Yes, you’re right, there’s that.

I always said that you played a good Devil's Advocate Charles. Guess what? My teacher wouldn't even talk to you without money, Neither would Wang. Want To Know why? It's because it's correct and the more correct that something is, the more it is worth.
And now for the other side of that coin.
I have found that people who are afraid to charge the correct amount of money usually have some sort of underlying issue, perhaps a confidence problem or are suffering from low self-esteem, a man should know what he is worth.
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Re: Chen style Taiji, Yang WenJing (very wriggly).

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:01 am

Saved in the annals for posterity.

I have the abilitie to humble myself to superiors, others don't. I appreciate being corrected, others hate it and despise the people who try to help them.
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