Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:24 pm

I like what this Australian teacher is showing here -- and his clips in general -- a lot. This is the sort of innovative thinking Taiji people need if they wish to apply Taiji in the ring, rather than training Sanda on the side and breaking it out when push comes to shoves like some of the Chenjiagou guys are doing.

Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:05 pm

Looking at the clip he seems to have a bad habit of leading with his head.
Anyone feel this is a good idea :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:33 pm

His movements may not be perfect by everyone's standards, but I still think this is a great exercise in terms of training how to express Taiji using boxing punches.

It also shows that IMA is based on principles and body mechanics rather than specific techniques that must have certain outward appearances. Once you understand them, they can be utilized and expressed in any number of ways.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:43 pm

Had a couple of students who boxed. Their interest in Taiji was in a taiji approach to help them deal with clinches and clinching.
Its not a matter of "bad" movement. It is a matter of bad habits that will tend to get one knocked out if used with anyone of skill.

If its about principles and body mechanics can you point to a specific skill that no other art has that taiji would teach.
My point being that "taiji" is tied to the family styles that are commonly viewed and recognized as taiji.

Unless there is a very unique skill set that only "taiji" can teach or develop I see no sense in the association with taiji.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I like what this Australian teacher is showing here -- and his clips in general -- a lot. This is the sort of innovative thinking Taiji people need if they wish to apply Taiji in the ring, rather than training Sanda on the side and breaking it out when push comes to shoves like some of the Chenjiagou guys are doing

So yours secret Taiji stepping would not be enough......Of course there are a lot of similarities on how to generate power and other things between the boxing arts
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:00 pm

windwalker wrote:Had a couple of students who boxed. Their interest in Taiji was in a taiji approach to help them deal with clinches and clinching.
Its not a matter of "bad" movement. It is a matter of bad habits that will tend to get one knocked out if used with anyone of skill.

If its about principles and body mechanics can you point to a specific skill that no other art has that taiji would teach.
My point being that "taiji" is tied to the family styles that are commonly viewed and recognized as taiji.

Unless there is a very unique skill set that only "taiji" can teach or develop I see no sense in the association with taiji.


Sounds like you are a Taiji purist who considers this type of work sacrilegious. ;)

My approach to IMA is to not be bound by style, outward appearance, and technique, but to focus on the specific mechanisms that each system uses to generate power, mobility, and stability -- and to look for common denominators that tie them together as well as subtle differences.

For instance, when simultaneous deflecting and countering a common haymaker using what "looks like" a Karate upper block, I can actually think of at least 4 ways of doing it using body mechanics from Wing Chun, Xingyi, White Crane, and Bagua. In the eye of a layman, they will all appear almost identical on the outside, but on the inside, they are all distinctly different.

The idea is that if you simply focus on outward appearances, you will never be able to move beyond what's on the surface, which is often very deceiving.

My question to you is, if you don't feel that Taiji is about principles and body mechanics, how do you look at it? How do you explain the fact that there are so many styles of Taiji out there (Yang, Wu, Chen, Sun, and Hao, etc.) that look so different on the outside in terms of movements and yet can all be regarded as Taiji? 
Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 6 times in total.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:26 pm

Trick wrote:So yours secret Taiji stepping would not be enough......Of course there are a lot of similarities on how to generate power and other things between the boxing arts


It's hardly a secret, really. It's a very, very basic principle on how to remain Yin/Yang balanced when moving and issuing energy. I'd actually go out on a limb and say that you might already be doing it right if you've received good instruction from a skilled teacher. (But the thing is, just because someone is doing it right doesn't necessarily mean that they understand how it works. )

Anyways, regarding the video. Your are definitely correct in saying that there are similarities between Taiji and boxing in terms of power generation -- heck, even a good baseball swing shares common ground with Taiji.

In this case, though, I'm more impressed with the DIFFERENCES the teacher shows, namely how to generate power against steady resistance and the multi-directional (6-harmony) nature of his strike. Those are the things average boxers don't do, at least from what I've seen.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:01 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
Sounds like you are a Taiji purist who considers this type of work sacrilegious. ;)

It would be more fair to say I am a CMA purist. ;)

Why is it that a boxer looks like a boxer, TKD looks like TKD ect when used but "taiji" can look like anything that one chooses to label it with. :P
Some one, like in the clip having a taiji back ground attempts to demo something leading with the head,,, This comes from IME not having to use it against people of skill..I notice this with people who practice push hands a lot....

The reason why its not good is very apparent why when one engages with some one of skill....not good for the head when it meets fist :-\ as JW might say.


My approach to IMA is to not be bound by style, outward appearance, and technique, but to focus on the specific mechanisms that each system uses to generate power, mobility, and stability -- and to look for common denominators that tie them together as well as subtle differences.

My experience maybe a little different, with the caveat that it depends on the depth of ones practice. IME at what some might call the higher levels of usage they can be very different. So much so that some on practicing in a style may not be able to be trained in anything else. Many teachers I know wont take a student because of this.


For instance, when simultaneous deflecting and countering a common haymaker using what "looks like" a Karate upper block, I can actually think of at least 4 ways of doing it using body mechanics from Wing Chun, Xingyi, White Crane, and Bagua. In the eye of a layman, they will all appear almost identical on the outside, but on the inside, they are all distinctly different. One may feel what they do is different, IME for many who feel so, actually what they do use and use tends to be what ever is really ingrained in them...So while someone might say they'er doing x,y, or z actually its really only z.

The idea is that if you simply focus on outward appearances, you will never be able to move beyond what's on the surface, which is often very deceiving.
Kind of surprised you would say this. How something is done whether outside or inside both influence each other depending on level of development. It is said from outside to inside, from inside to outside, We call it flavor...a karate person may say they know taiji but still have a karate flavor to it. People on this site talk about it all the time.

My question to you is, if you don't feel that Taiji is about principles and body mechanics, how do you look at it? How do you explain the fact that there are so many styles of Taiji out there (Yang, Wu, Chen, Sun, and Hao, etc.) that look so different on the outside in terms of movements and yet can all be regarded as Taiji? 


All based off a certain set of ideas expressed on variations of yang style combined with each teachers insights. They tend to look the same and move the same because of a common ancestor. As you may or not know Chen style was included in the family of taiji styles at a later date, the subject of many discussions as to why Chen style seems to be so different from the other taiji styles.

This helps to explain the importance of linage in helping people verify a style, method or practice....

If its not important, MMA is an out growth of this kind of thinking...
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:52 am, edited 12 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:33 am

It's a bit funny to see someone turn boxing punches into Tai Chi pushes.... Not very innovative, IMO.

Would be more innovative to see someone who could turn tai chi pushes into tai chi punches that actually had some kind of punching power. But no, everyone wants to "push"... :/

BTW, there was a pretty good clip from Michael Phillips demonstrating how to make a boxing hook with Tai Chi principles. More or less just good boxing, but it focused on Tai chi principles. He took away all of his old vids years ago. Someone re-published a few of them though not that one.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6355
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Tiga Pukul on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:05 am

Good remark Bao. All i see is people wanting to push instead of punch. It's hard to believe that it's called 'grand ultimate fist' but looks like 'grand ultimate push' ;)
Tiga Pukul
Huajing
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:58 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:11 am

Tiga Pukul wrote: It's hard to believe that it's called 'grand ultimate fist' but looks like 'grand ultimate push' ;)


Ha ha ;D Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijitui. Yup, sounds pretty much correct. 8-)
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6355
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Steve James on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:33 pm

Last edited by Steve James on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17020
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:34 pm

On the subject of pushing vs. hitting, if you know what you are doing, a push can be turned into a vicious knock-out strike with speed and allowing the shoulders, elbows, and wrists to accelerate to decrease contact time with the target.

The path in which the "jin" travels is the same.

Also, in the lines of ICMA I've been exposed to, I'd say there actually isn't a very clear boundary between pushing and striking. Oftentimes, it's a mixture of both of varying degrees. IMO, this quality allows you to blend striking and grappling together and makes your moves more unpredictable to the opponent.

From the perspective of health maintenance, I was taught that the reason ICMA prefers to train using pushes rather than strikes is to conserve qi. Whenever you throw a hard strike, especially with fajin, you are actually releasing qi. That's why it'd be wise to not over-train it and only use it when necessary.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:30 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I like what this Australian teacher is showing here -- and his clips in general -- a lot. This is the sort of innovative thinking Taiji people need if they wish to apply Taiji in the ring, rather than training Sanda on the side and breaking it out when push comes to shoves like some of the Chenjiagou guys are doing.


Others have shown this same skill in demonstrations and push hands. So, I wouldn't call it innovative.

Watch the feeder, not the demonstrator. The guy (feeder) on the right with long pants is holding with tension. The next step should be to practice the same skill with more realistic reactions from the partner (feeder), before entering "the ring." Mark Rasmus may find this more difficult.

Sanda partner training simulates more realistic attacks (e.g., retraction of arms, movement, etc.). As a result, their movements in training tend to look the same in a fight.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1220
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Boxing punches with Taiji body mechanics

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:53 pm

C.J.W. wrote:if you know what you are doing, a push can be turned into a vicious knock-out strike with speed and allowing the shoulders, elbows, and wrists to accelerate to decrease contact time with the target.
The path in which the "jin" travels is the same.


Better to consciously practice on a good punch so you have the confidence that it’s there when you need it.

And it’s better to adjust the mechanics for a punch. There’s a reason why an, Ji and peng has different names, they are three different jins, three different ways to arrange your body structure to establish jin.

Your power might come naturally when you need it, but you can establish far greater damaging power if you have consciously practiced it for a while.

For most people, they really need this kind of practice. Just put any Tai Chi practitioner against a sturdy bag. They can all do a “push” against it, but when they try to strike, many will tense up and have very little penetrative power. Some people won’t understand how to align the wrist and tense it or hurt it when they strike.

So if you believe that punches come naturally from pushing, that might be your own personal experience and might be true for you. But for my own experience working in classes with others and teaching classes, I don’t find it so simple for most people. Even if someone can issue a very powerful looking fajing push in open air it’s still not certain that he can translate that power into a sturdy bag. No, often it’s not that easy.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6355
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Next

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests

cron