Sam Tam

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Sam Tam

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:31 am

Interesting clip. What do you think he's doing?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQjX6RO ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:52 am

Over-the-top cooperative (energy-feeding) training.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:14 am



Indirectly he's demonstrating resonance, and how this interacts with a person he's training with.

It has nothing to do with being cooperative other than it's a training class demonstrating a certain principle.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:23 am

windwalker wrote:...it's a training class demonstrating a certain principle.


Yup, that should pretty much sum up what he does here. 8-)

C.J.W. wrote:Over-the-top cooperative (energy-feeding) training.


The methods, techniques are still legit. But sure, it would be easier to judge his skill with non-practitioners, newcomers and beginners etc.

Heard a lot good about him and that you need to feel him first hand to really appreciate what he does. I've heard a couple of guys who have met a whole lot of well known Tai Chi/IMA profiles saying that Sam Tam is the best of the bunch. Don't know the reason for the endorsement and appraisal, but I would go to meet him first before judging him too much on the youtube performances.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby Subitai on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:56 pm

It's a training class alright......................................................................................

.....a training class to teach a guy how to be "Over-the-top cooperative" 8-) ;D
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:31 am

Subitai wrote:It's a training class alright......................................................................................

.....a training class to teach a guy how to be "Over-the-top cooperative" 8-) ;D


yep

Demos taking out of context often look odd,
everyone does them. I would have the thought the point was about to understand the what, how and why....

As I mentioned indirectly what sam is using could be called resonance, its what I would call it he may feel its something different.

its a demo about an interesting effect.

just as this demo is also about an effect. Although I would explain it differently in terms of parallel axis .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixsVLW1NA0
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:40 am

GrahamB wrote:Interesting clip. What do you think he's doing?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQjX6RO ... e=youtu.be


although he explains it a little differently what is shown is essentially the same thing as what this teacher demos
and works for the same reasons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIULbQ-Hh6g

The both talk in the terms of their understanding teacher Gao. tends to use more physics
in his explanations....tying it to whats written in the classics.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 am

GrahamB wrote:Interesting clip. What do you think he's doing?

I would love to do a small (and very easy) experiment:
1) Find someone who is Sam's height and general body type but has no IMA or any other related training at all, wearing a similar shirt (so the cloth texture doesn't give anything away through the student's palm).
2) Have this student, with his eyes shut and ears plugged, stand in the middle of the room.
3) Have Sam and that other guy randomly alternate having the student put his hand on their shoulders and trying to affect the student in this dramatic fashion, with that other guy moving in a similar fashion outwardly, i.e. simply trying to imitate Sam's outwardly-visible movements against that student, having carefully observed him for a couple minutes.

I would bet you anything that the variation in the student's response would be statistically irrelevant, i.e. he would be about just as likely to react (or not) in a certain way to Sam vs. to the other guy.

Too bad nobody will probably ever conduct a simple experiment like that. :-X
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:15 am

Dmitri wrote:
I would bet you anything that the variation in the student's response would be statistically irrelevant, i.e. he would be about just as likely to react (or not) in a certain way to Sam vs. to the other guy.

Too bad nobody will probably ever conduct a simple experiment like that. :-X



Actually they have and I have in different ways to understand why, when, how and what.. its part of the process.
It gets tested and challenged by people there, in order to understand whats going on,,,and why.

you might first start off by stating what you think the acting agent is, and what it's acting on. The clip I posted with teacher Gao, explained a lot of it,
but I would like to understand your theories on this.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby xian89 on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:21 am

I believe it is a student/teacher situation. The student is supposed to feel Sam in order to gain an understanding of some principle/flavour/etc. in a casual and playful atmosphere
Learning requires cooperation - the student shouldn't try to change, to just resist with all his might nor collapse and run away (unless that is part of the learning experience that is being imparted, of course), but give something for the teacher to work with. I don't believe there is "over-the-top" cooperation in this video in so far it means "jumping" and "fakting" the effects on the student's part.

As best I know, part of Sam's "fame" is that he can also perfom many of these things on anyone at any level of intensity while remaining casual and loose, he just doesn't advertize it. He is quite reluctant to have ANY videos released to the public in general and prefers the semi-anonymous life. But he films every student and challenger that comes by him "to avoid any misunderstanding" and has quite a collection of videos. I think pretty much everyone on here would be suprised by the famous teachers (historical and today's) of every kind of style, internal as well as external, that has visited him unofficially and "in secret" only to get thrown around like a baby in his hands.

The best public video of Sam is this IMO:
https://www.facebook.com/charles.jenks.12/videos/1681832938763204/
https://indrestyrkeblog.wordpress.com/ - my blog where I try to collect useful articles and commentaries on internal training
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:53 am

windwalker wrote:Actually they have and I have in different ways

But probably not quite the experiment I described... the details there are simple to follow, but extremely important for its validity.

you might first start off by stating what you think the acting agent is, and what it's acting on.

A lot of different complex mini-interactions are taking place, like with any human contact. A rather large part of it is the participants' expectations of what's supposed to happen, and that will vary according to their suggestibility and various other parameters. The experiment I suggested is intended to take that factor out of the equation in an attempt to determine how important of a factor that actually is. (And I believe it's rather important/large.)
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:46 pm

windwalker wrote:
Subitai wrote:It's a training class alright......................................................................................

.....a training class to teach a guy how to be "Over-the-top cooperative" 8-) ;D


yep

Demos taking out of context often look odd,
everyone does them. I would have the thought the point was about to understand the what, how and why....

As I mentioned indirectly what sam is using could be called resonance, its what I would call it he may feel its something different.

its a demo about an interesting effect.

just as this demo is also about an effect. Although I would explain it differently in terms of parallel axis .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixsVLW1NA0


Ok so do you watch American TV at all? Just wondering if you're doing a captain obvious thing here?

Image

Do you mean something obvious? or please explain what you're getting at?

You said:
" I would have the thought the point was about to understand the what, how and why...."


My confusion because obviously the OG video doesn't give the "what, how or the why"

...where as in my video I do.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:56 pm

Energy-feeding training has its place and purposes in IMA training (e.g., structure testing, developing sensitivity, finding jin-path, etc), but it can also sometimes lead practitioners astray -- especially when they begin to confuse this type of work with application.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:15 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Energy-feeding training has its place and purposes in IMA training (e.g., structure testing, developing sensitivity, finding jin-path, etc), but it can also sometimes lead practitioners astray -- especially when they begin to confuse this type of work with application.


yep,,,exactly. It's similar to breaking demos in that its a draw factor for those looking for something different not understanding the application aspect or more importantly not training it..Even for teachers skilled in it directly often they seem to lose this understanding. One of the reasons I switched to using physics to explain, test, and verify.


Dmitri wrote: A lot of different complex mini-interactions are taking place, like with any human contact. A rather large part of it is the participants' expectations of what's supposed to happen, and that will vary according to their suggestibility and various other parameters. The experiment I suggested is intended to take that factor out of the equation in an attempt to determine how important of a factor that actually is. (And I believe it's rather important/large.)


Thought so, no idea of how it would or could work except to disprove it. It might surprise you that many
having trained in other things often have the expectation that it wont work in meeting with teachers of this until
they find that it does. Which is why many stay....

I used the word resonance to partly explain the reactions with those I work
work with. The question then becomes resonating with what.
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Re: Sam Tam

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:37 pm

xian89 wrote:I believe it is a student/teacher situation. The student is supposed to feel Sam in order to gain an understanding of some principle/flavour/etc. in a casual and playful atmosphere
Learning requires cooperation - the student shouldn't try to change, to just resist with all his might nor collapse and run away (unless that is part of the learning experience that is being imparted, of course), but give something for the teacher to work with. I don't believe there is "over-the-top" cooperation in this video in so far it means "jumping" and "fakting" the effects on the student's part. It is odd as most do try to resist something they can not consciously feel and then say nothing happened. For those watching they clearly see that something happened .

I use the word resonance to help describe what I feel is happening. It is interesting in other threads people describe their centers being moved. Or being off balance but never seem to equate this With that. The chinese talk about a field "qi chong" or qi field that surrounds the body. Depending on how developed it is it can extend a couple of feet away from the body or only to the surface. Teacher Gao, talks about this field in the clip I posted. He mentions its the interaction of this field with others and the interchange of it and the body,,,empty and full that he uses to cause the reactions.



As best I know, part of Sam's "fame" is that he can also perfom many of these things on anyone at any level of intensity while remaining casual and loose, he just doesn't advertize it. He is quite reluctant to have ANY videos released to the public in general and prefers the semi-anonymous life. But he films every student and challenger that comes by him "to avoid any misunderstanding" and has quite a collection of videos.

I think pretty much everyone on here would be surprised by the famous teachers (historical and today's) of every kind of style, internal as well as external, that has visited him unofficially and "in secret" only to get thrown around like a baby in his hands.

The best public video of Sam is this IMO:
https://www.facebook.com/charles.jenks.12/videos/1681832938763204/


Funny how this gets ignored, ;) doesn't quite fit the narrative that some want to promote.
They never really seem to be interested in it only maintaining their belief about it.

As is often the case many teachers doing this type of work prefer to remain in anonymity
focusing on the work..

I think pretty much everyone on here would be surprised by the famous teachers (historical and today's) of every kind of style, internal as well as external, that has visited him unofficially and "in secret" only to get thrown around like a baby in his hands.


More often then not this is the real case. People come to find teachers to have their views challenged.
The most skilled are often the most privet not for the general public ....
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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