GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation). The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov.
Hey, it's just an idea, but I think it's quite likely.
There are just so many unanswered questions about Yang style, Chen style and their relationship. Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...
cloudz wrote:Or they both changed those parts, because frankly they were taoist leaning.
we know that the 32 posture framework was abandoned and changed to 37.
the new framework was probably Long-fist.
I think YLC came away with Lao Jia and small frame knowledge and in some way sought to combine that.
GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy
as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation).
The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov.
Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...
salcanzonieri wrote: I posted an older Tong Bei Rou Quan form that has the same names of the moves and the same sequence of "the form".
So, "the form" already existed. Which is what was taught by Chen to YLC.
Hence, why he didn't teach the family style to YLC, he taught a Tong Bei Rou Quan set, which was already imbued with not only "the form" but what became called "Tai Chi". which in essence, starting in the 1500s already existed as a thing.
everything wrote:Although people seem to have a gigantic problem with the “energy” stuff he heavily writes about, they don’t seem to have issue with his “martial” aspects.
We don’t need to care if some “previous” version had x or y.
Bhassler wrote:Chen Chang Xing died in 1853. YLC was born in 1799, so if he was 52-53 by the time he went to Beijing, that means CCX was already dead.
The story I heard was that CCX's wife was younger, and after CCX died, the local village fellas didn't like YLC living in the house with CCX's widow, so got together and politely told YLC to fuck off and not come back. Which also explains why YLC felt he had to change the art to something reflecting his own understanding that wouldn't immediately be tied back to Chen village.
Bhassler wrote:Chen Chang Xing died in 1853. YLC was born in 1799, so if he was 52-53 by the time he went to Beijing, that means CCX was already dead. The story I heard was that CCX's wife was younger, and after CCX died, the local village fellas didn't like YLC living in the house with CCX's widow, so got together and politely told YLC to fuck off and not come back. Which also explains why YLC felt he had to change the art to something reflecting his own understanding that wouldn't immediately be tied back to Chen village.
I'm not into the pseudo-history aspect of gongfu and the constant Batman-esque movie reboot style of competing origin stories that seem so prevalent these days, so I haven't researched it. It could be total nonsense, and I wouldn't care if it was. It's still just as plausible as most of the other theories that are bandied about lately.
salcanzonieri wrote:GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation). The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov.
Hey, it's just an idea, but I think it's quite likely.
There are just so many unanswered questions about Yang style, Chen style and their relationship. Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...
But, if you read my response to you in the thread on the other page, I posted an older Tong Bei Rou Quan form that has the same names of the moves and the same sequence of "the form".
So, "the form" already existed. Which is what was taught by Chen to YLC.
Hence, why he didn't teach the family style to YLC, he taught a Tong Bei Rou Quan set, which was already imbued with not only "the form" but what became called "Tai Chi". which in essence, starting in the 1500s already existed as a thing.
Bao wrote:GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy
It's an interesting idea...as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation).
I have no idea why they needed something "old" and "Chinese" in 1850.
YLC was a trained security person and bodyguard. He was invited to the court to train the imperial guard. He taught combat and body guard stuff.
1850 was the year when the The Taiping Rebellion broke out. They needed lots of support and reinforcements to protect the imperial palace and took what they could get. To be frank - Yang Luchan was just the person they managed to find at that time.
And I have no clue why they would have time or interest to think about old Chinese stuff when they needed all time they had to reinforce and strengthen the soldiers and the guard. Yeah, sure, Wu Yuxiang did that. But he was more of a scholar and did his own thing. But the rest of YLC's students learned from him solely to become better fighters and to learn how to better protect the palace.
salcanzonieri wrote:GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation). The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov.
Hey, it's just an idea, but I think it's quite likely.
There are just so many unanswered questions about Yang style, Chen style and their relationship. Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...
But, if you read my response to you in the thread on the other page, I posted an older Tong Bei Rou Quan form that has the same names of the moves and the same sequence of "the form".
So, "the form" already existed. Which is what was taught by Chen to YLC.
Hence, why he didn't teach the family style to YLC, he taught a Tong Bei Rou Quan set, which was already imbued with not only "the form" but what became called "Tai Chi". which in essence, starting in the 1500s already existed as a thing.
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