the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

This time Wu (Hao) style stick. It doesn't really belong to the classical curriculum, and master Zhai Weichuan is not teaching it himself, but his son does. As I was told, it was Hao Weizhen who started developing this form, but he didn't complete the work, then his student Li Shengduan passed the sketch of the form to Chen Gu'an in Xingtai. It was Chen Gu'an, known as a creator of so called xinjia (new frame) of Wu (Hao) style, who is author of the present version of stick form. Some disciples of master Zhai Weichuan learned this form and are teaching this. Zhai Weichuan's son Zhai Shizong shortened and modified it a bit. Here is his variant:

Very Wu Shu ish the exact opposite of the hand form and the broadsword shown earlier

Longer version of this form (like taught by Chen Gu'an), by Li Shengyin - another disciple of Zhai Weichuan.



By Gao Liancheng - Chen Gu'an's disciple

Here a sword form as practiced in the line Hao Weizhen -> Li Shengduan -> Chen Gu'an and Wu Wenhan. Both Chen Gu'an and Wu Wenhan learned from Li Shengduan. Late Wu Wenhan demonstrating. This is 55 sequences form, probably introduced into the style later, completely different from our 13 sequences.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Bf4y1Q7V7/

wayne hansen wrote:Very Wu Shu ish

Agreed. My thought exactly: wushu

But it's not really about any special performance... I love Wu Taiji and I am usually not this critical, but this form is not my cup of tea. I find it very modern and I see hardly any methods from the spear. Chinese Spear and staff are pretty much the same. Also, I see no "twist and wash" here. Can hardly see any traditional Chinese use of staff here, but rather many unpractical moves. However, I am sure it would be great for the stick battle in any version of Robin Hood.

The staff fight in this clip shows traditional methods better and is a pretty good depiction of how traditional staff should actually be used. : https://youtu.be/fm8pOxucMqA?t=147

Never mind - this is a pointless discussion

Bob wrote:Is this too wu shu like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_t8yX-zWc

I'll tell you what that DOES look Similar to:

Basic" Shaolin type staff" form or similar origin.

The ground strikes, the sweeping, the change to single hand. The classic run come follow me then turn around and attack.

I only say all that because if I were to consider common tai chi type skills...I'm not sure this one(video) flows the same way..

2cents

Never mind - basic indeed but yields a pointless discussion

Bob wrote:Is this too wu shu like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_t8yX-zWc

Not 0.16 to 0.25. That's the useful part. Better to just drill this short section than to do the whole form. Maybe an additional 2-3 movements are ok. The rest is just Shaolin style entertainment. As a whole, it's far from enough to understand traditional Chinese staff strategy.

As always, if a staff performance is too far away from the use of the Chinese spear, it means that the performer don't understand the use of the Chinese staff.

The single ended staff is like the spear
The double ended staff can be quite different

wayne hansen wrote:The single ended staff is like the spear
The double ended staff can be quite different

Sure. It can. However, basics are still the basics. You can always see if someone understand them or not. "Twisting and 'washing'" is something fundamental. If you know about the principles, they will always be there.

In Chinese spear and staff fighting, if your opponent has a long weapon, you always attack his weapon and stick to it with your weapon. You always need to understand the techniques and movements used to "attack and stick". Otherwise it's not Chinese weaponry.

Bao, think you're being a bit too absolute when you say it has to resemble spear methods. As Wayne pointed out, double-headed staff can look v different - but still be valid and practical.

For example, look at Gao family Kezi Gun (IMHO one of the most practical Chinese 2-man staff styles:

In their system every move is actually part of a paired drill, which means every move has real usage....and yet there are many moves in there with no resemblance to spear methods. YMMV, etc....

nicklinjm wrote:Bao, think you're being a bit too absolute when you say it has to resemble spear methods. As Wayne pointed out, double-headed staff can look v different - but still be valid and practical.

For example, look at Gao family Kezi Gun (IMHO one of the most practical Chinese 2-man staff styles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyJYSSisLpI

In their system every move is actually part of a paired drill, which means every move has real usage....and yet there are many moves in there with no resemblance to spear methods. YMMV, etc....

I edited my post and added:

"In Chinese spear and staff fighting, if your opponent has a long weapon, you always attack his weapon and stick to it with your weapon. You always need to understand the techniques and movements used to "attack and stick". Otherwise it's not Chinese weaponry." It's simple as this really. If someone understands it, you will se it. You can't miss it really.

Thanks, I will look at the video tomorrow, it's 2.00 am here.

The point of the clip is not to compare it to the spear but rather the inferences that one makes regarding whether a form is either "contemporary wushu/shaolin" with regard to traditional.

This form was taught in Taiwan prior to the 1970s and at a time when there was virtually no martial arts exchanges between the mainland and Taiwan.

Master Su learned this from the Masters who were in Taiwan and had come from the mainland as part of the Guomingdang so it was in existence prior to 1947 and there was no commercialization of the "Shaolin Temple" (whatever that means) and for that matter no "Shaolin Temple"

The form is taught as single moving parts with applications and then linked together in the form - most of what we term "Shaolin" was reinvented on the basis of traditional forms (longfist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKOdnu7CxF0

Master Su Yu Chang demonstrating Fengmo Gun in Wu Tan 1970.



The above staff was taught as part of a traditional praying mantis curriculum that Master Su Yu Chang developed and was taught closely by my teacher. There was no "contemporary wushu" ever taught in those classes

"Contemporary wushu and "Shaolin" were basically meaningless terms to us.

Contemporary Feng Mo Gun - not much difference but the direction of its development is from traditional to "Shaolin"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_TAvtVwxFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pcTd2otxtc

Master Su Yu Chang demonstrating his skills in Tang Lang Chuen in Wu Tan 1970.



Contemporary Feng Mo Gun - not much difference but the direction of its development is from traditional to "Shaolin"

Crazy Demon Staff "Feng Mo Gun 疯魔棍" Tutorial



And yes I had the unbearable experience in 1990 of having to endure a "Shaolin performance" at the "Shaolin Temple"

Master Su Yu Chang Fengmo Gun( 瘋魔棍)

@ Bob, Nice clip

Very reminiscent of what I learned in Korea in the late 70s from my teacher Mr Park teaching plum flower mantis..

Although when I practiced it, used a weight bar at the time, around 12 lbs
You might find this interesting, Mr. Park said they used to bury the staff in the ground for a period of time after soaking in certain herbs.. this was thought to impart an iron like quality to it, while still retaining some flexibility.


small story

Some GIs, watching me at the time working with it, laughed.
Asked if they wanted to try,,they said "sure "

Tossed the weight bar,,,very funny watching the look on their face as they caught it...

One of Mr Parks senior students Mr Lee


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJVhoy5iavk