TuiShou Stereo - Giles Rosbander + Martin Neumann

[Giles]

Hi folks,

Here's a shortish film about some of the training approaches for tai chi tuishou / push hands that my colleague and training partner Martin Neumann and myself apply in our own shared training, and which we also teach in seminars we give. So it's (also) a promotional film for our joint seminars (see http://tuishou-stereo.com).
We show and also talk a bit about the how and why of this approach to tuishou.
This certainly isn't everything we train together, or everything I train by myself and with others, but it's fairly representative of the aforementioned teaching (although we use a range of tuishou patterns, too, which we don't show here).

English subtitles can be activated with a click on the button at the bottom right.

[windwalker]

nice to see the work of others...
no thumbs up on this site..

thumbs up

[Appledog]

There is something special about your work, it looks very "flow" and interesting. A step above usual. Thank you for sharing~

[everything]

nice to see the work of others...
no thumbs up on this site..

thumbs up

this site won't be happy til YLC rises from the dead to beat prime Fedor (drink, origami), then will still find something visible to criticize

thanks for posting, giles, looks like fun and very "4 oz"

[Trip]

As usual, I like your post.
And, overall, I like this video.

But, I feel in the simulated punching in the video is too slow.

I say this because a few days ago I was attacked in the street.
I got into what I thought was just a quick passing verbal exchange with a young man.
Then, suddenly, things turned quickly.

Before I could finish the sentence, “Are you going to …(hit me?)”
The guy rushed me with a 6 to 8 punch combination of kicks and punches.
The speed of his attack was as if he was competing for a 100 yard dash.
It was as if he wanted a viral knock out video.

He started with a right kick to the head, then left hook.
I thought, “Wow, he’s trained and he’s got skills!”

Reflexively, I blocked his initial kick and left hook.
I defended a few more but he caught me with a left.

I was very disappointed with myself that he caught me at all.
But, when he caught me he was too light, I thought “that’s it?” “that’s all you got?”.
At that moment, I knew I didn’t have to worry about his power.

I returned a clean counter-punch to his head that turned his body.
He reflexively, screamed good punch, good punch several times.
He didn’t have to tell me, I knew it. I hit him right!

But, I was unhappy I didn’t sit down on the punch.
It was just a reaction shot of “He hit me, I hit him back.
My alignment was there, so my punch still had good effect on him.

But, after surviving his initial blitzkrieg attack,
it took me 15 to 20 seconds before I called on my listening skills.
I thought that was too long.

Once I started to knowingly listen, everything changed.
I could see him clearly, I knew everything about him, where his weight was, etc.

I took full control.
Luckily, for him one of his friends jumped between us which gave him the opportunity to run off.
And, lucky for me too. I likely would have been arrested for what I might have done to him.

My point is, I feel the punches in your video are thrown way too slow.
Though I wasn’t injured, no bruising or puffiness,
that 15 second delay before my listening kicked in, I could have been hurt.

And maybe, just maybe,
had I been listening before his attack,
I could have seen what kind of person he was and just let him have the last word.

So, I am just suggesting if you're gonna train punch defense in your push hands
then there's a need for to train for punches at speed.
And, that your punch feeder, needs to know how to throw punches.

And, that way, hopefully
If an unexpected event happens
there's no delay in Taiji Listening skill.

[everything]

sorry you got in that conflict, Trip.

good job reacting then moving to listening. good job to his friend for de-escalating somehow. ugh man.

[Giles]

Thanks for the positive comments, people.
And thanks Trip for your feedback, and sharing of a nasty experience. Great that you came out okay. You're right that the 'punches' we do in this video are not realistic in terms of speed and that an actual attack, and any successful defence, will be much faster. In this video, we remain within the pushing hands format in both locations (park and indoors), focusing on flow and connection. One of the things we train here is that when bridging and blending you need to respond more to the other person's centre than to their hands, definitely not 'fishing' for their hands. In my experience, in a tai chi training format most people learn this better by getting a basic feel for this while remaining relaxed and grounded and indeed 'loose', and then we steadily increase speed and intensity - without them switching to fright-driven contraction and stiffness but instead aiming to retain flow.
Or of course you gain this sense-the-centre skill through lots of classic fight training. Which is great, but we work and teach here in a tai chi format, mostly with 'normal' people of various ages. And at my age, with a potentially serious back issue that's behaving itself nicely but will never totally go away, I prefer to stay within this kind of enviroment.
Apart from that, I make absolutely no claims to be a 'fighter' but I have trained a little MMA and boxing in the past and done more intensive sparring and cross-training. And in my youth got whacked around a few times for real . So of course I accept the validity of your comment. In a week or so I'll be posting another push hands video where I work with a different training partner, and here we stretch the envelope a little more, sometimes go a little faster. But that too is without protective equipment and with a focus on tuishou, so it will be fairly tame too .

[Trip]

Thanks Trip for your feedback, and sharing of a nasty experience. Great that you came out okay. You're right that the 'punches' we do in this video are not realistic in terms of speed and that an actual attack, and any successful defence, will be much faster. In this video, we remain within the pushing hands format...

Or of course you gain this sense-the-centre skill through lots of classic fight training. Which is great, but we work and teach here in a tai chi format, mostly with 'normal' people of various ages. And at my age, with a potentially serious back issue that's behaving itself nicely but will never totally go away, I prefer to stay within this kind of enviroment.

I totally understand and agree with your approach that you should stay within a "tai chi format."

...

I say the following only as an attempt for more clarity & understanding.

My post contains no suggestion
for 'fishing' for the opponent's hands,
"fright-driven" driven movements
or, for you to speed up

or, that in order to successfully apply Taiji in a fight
you have to cross train in MMA or Boxing

My post had nothing to do with the physical in that sense

I know for sure you don't have to go outside Taiji
to defend against punches

My suggestion is focused on Taiji Listening Energy
because it was mentioned in your video.

I noticed in your video
that you were responding to slow punches
starting from contact.

If you have well developed Listening Skills
and an encounter starts from contact
then the Listening energy will most likely be instantaneous.

But, in my limited experience
I have found that most punchers (Strikers) that I encounter
do not usually start with contact.

I spoke of my recent event
Where an attacker launched a surprise assault
just as an example of just one of the reasons it's important
to have proper punches thrown
when training Taiji to defend against punches.

Judging from your past and present posts on RSF
I think you have a very good handle on your training.

I meant no disrespect for what you do
Please forgive me for suggesting how you should train your Taiji

I look forward to you sharing more of your Taiji experiences.
Happy Training!

[GrahamB]

It looks like fun - a kind of spirit dance with a partner. If that's what you like doing then keep doing it. There's a lot of interesting things that come out of these types of engagements. There is also Aikido

To Trip's point though, I don't think this kind of training will ever prepare you to deal with the aggression of a real life situation. You could make the punches faster, but that's a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic

[Giles]

Hey, Trip, all good!! I appreciate your feedback, in both posts, and don't feel 'imposed upon' at all.
Just to address the concrete issue of bridging: indeed and as you say, the huge majority of real attacks don't start from contact, but from someone bridging the gap in some way so they can do you. Either rushing in, covering any gap in a second or less, or sneaking in, suckerpunching or even blindsiding you. (If someone squares off with you in real life and you 'sign the offered contract', then that's your own fault). Of course there are no real-life or even particularly realistic attacks in this video, at least in terms of speed, but actually in this video, in the indoor sequences, you can see various moments that start with one of us moving in or 'attacking' from a distance, with a corresponding response and bridging by the 'recipient'. There were actually more of these but sometimes the bridging is cut so that it looks as if we're already in contact. And in the majority of the moments we are indeed already in contact - it's a tuishou vid.

Will any of this stuff we train (here) work in a real attack? Assuming of course that we can manage to stay loose and centered, match the speed of the attacker to bridge or evade, and borrow the attacker's speed and force, and counterstrike, or just run? I think maybe, possibly, sometimes. Other times, possibly not or certainly not. Above all, it is what it is, much like most martial arts. A spirit dance? I like that, Graham, thanks.

[origami_itto]

Thank you for sharing this. In my experience it is extremely helpful for dealing with aggression directed at my person, just to throw that out there

Everything is a nail to a hammer.