Maybe Silk Reeling

[everything]

As i believe, its the competition mode that force the brute side of the force to be present.

judo says "if pulled, push. if pushed, pull", but in competition, you're not allowed to stand around having "neutrality principle". you have to attack. which might explain why it can seem like brute force.

"Seem" like brute force? "If it looks like a duck..." Or maybe "frog" would be better. In judo competitions they jump around like frogs. Nothing "internal" or even subtle as far the eyes can see, not here and not in any judo competition I've watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge-vsGOnsPs

it seems like the higher the level (ironically), the more it seems like brute force. just "get the win". lol.

[windwalker]

it seems like the higher the level (ironically), the more it seems like brute force. just "get the win". lol.

for those talking about judo,,,might be better to go out and play with a judoka no matter what level...

Had a Japanese boss of a high tech company from Japan...who was interested in my taiji...he and the CFO,
judo players with many yrs of training interested in the taiji I played at the time "37-step",
asked if I could teach them the form...

In doing so,,had them try different judo holds and throws on me to get a feel of how the taiji worked...They were very fast,
strong, and balanced....had they had more time, I'm sure they would have been able to adjust their "ting jin" to understand
the changes they could not feel,,,"yet"

Also had a chance to play with an engineer and his son in another high tech company,,this time solar..
French by ethnicity, both very interested in taiji, the son having trained for the French Olympic, judo team..

They both felt that the focus of the training was to narrow... prepping for the Olympic event....
They too, tried their judo, ,,,just enough to give me a taste, unable to find a place to throw it was quite interesting

With a little time,,,they would have adjusted....

They mentioned they liked the older judo training, more focused on what they felt the original foundations of the art were....less so on the competitive aspects...also interested in taiji...didn't have the time to set up some training....

Having worked with competitors from different arts, "friends" ...off line...
If the mind set is not to "win" one should probably not be competing,

"Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing"
Vince Lombardi

[everything]

judo is very fun. at least the randori (not necessarily emphasis on "winning").

[Trick]

judo is very fun. at least the randori (not necessarily emphasis on "winning").

i never tried judo, aikido i did, and karate（shotokan）i did a lot, so somewhat from that perspective i think the traditional Judo kata's seem interesting, but they seem to be almost lost today.

[Bao]

My first Tai Chi teacher practiced judo 15 years before he found Tai Chi. In his first meeting, his teacher invited him to try his judo on him. But he couldn't do anything at all, he just found all of his judo completely useless against Tai Chi. This is why he dropped his judo and started practicing Tai Chi.

[Appledog]

"I train to win" is the first step in one's mental departure from Neutrality Principle.

Ok, but is that bad?

Just like what I've said many times here; 'every step is a kick and every kick is a step...every punch is a throw and every throw is a punch', and people thinking it's some sort of tactical framework. Or that folding has anything to do with elbow-strike. As dumb as bastardizing Neutrality Principle by regarding it in such simplistic terms ie a non-action directive in competition.

Well, there is at least a phase people go through where they realize that every point on the circle (assuming you know the circle) can flower into an "application", whatever that means, but "tactical framework" -- if I am reading you right here, does exist somewhat, it just is not the main point. These forms are in fact sequences which are taken from what amounts to lohan shaolin boxing. Just a very derivative form of it, or so we have been led to believe.

There are a few ways to apply Neutrality Principle in sport-fighting. One of our guys won his first pro boxing match with passive forward pressure every round - making his opp fight while he countered and blocked while practicing his Prayer Wheel and Corn Grinding.

Do you mean to say he just did his qigong and the other guy became confused or was unable to move him from his qigong posture? Something like that?

One of our guys won his first MMA match by just moving his hands in corn-grinding cool warmups mode and making the other guy shoot for legs or try to tie up with him against our guy's Polishing Mirror and Prayer Wheel, and/or making the mistake of trying to groundfight with our guy.

You're giving the impression that all he did was corn grinding warmups as if his opponent wasn't there and he "won". I'm just trying to figure this out. I have heard that when one does the form one should imagine an opponent and when one fights one should act as if he is doing the form. Is that what you mean?

In each case Neutrality Principle is what caused those moving hands to make contact. That their opps were getting hit was incidental to the hands moving the same way as they move while doing the qigong.

It really seems as if you are advertising that your students just move their hands/bodies in the proper qigong way and they are "winning" their fights. Is this really what you mean?

Hundreds of hour building power in the qigong and testing it in training.

I can respect that. But by nine temple boxing you mean, nine temple qigong from marshall ho?

[everything]

judo is very fun. at least the randori (not necessarily emphasis on "winning").

i never tried judo, aikido i did, and karate（shotokan）i did a lot, so somewhat from that perspective i think the traditional Judo kata's seem interesting, but they seem to be almost lost today.

yeah i don't think many do the kata

My first Tai Chi teacher practiced judo 15 years before he found Tai Chi. In his first meeting, his teacher invited him to try his judo on him. But he couldn't do anything at all, he just found all of his judo completely useless against Tai Chi. This is why he dropped his judo and started practicing Tai Chi.

i think this is the ideal (if we substitute the word "a specific tai chi expert" for the word "Tai Chi" in a couple of places since "Tai Chi" could just be the garden variety of zero MA skill but good for balance, BP, etc). but if someone is studying bad tai chi with a bad teacher ...

[Giles]

I've been out for a week or so, too busy with other stuff. I'll dip back in now.

When I started this thread it was never seriously about "silk reeling". Or if it was, then I intended the first video, not the second 'dance' video, as more of a potential candidate for that category. But hardly anyone commented on that - maybe it was too boring to watch, although from the inside this exercise, done more deeply, is anything but boring.
Anyway, now it's another catch-all thread, but that's fine, it's how the world and probably the universe works.

I wanted to ask Windwalker about the video of himself doing tuishou that he posted tangentially here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfN_x-EZkTI
I already said that in principle I like what he's doing. Very nice fixed-step work, WW. However, I ask whether the moments when you lean sideways or backwards to neutralize are a choice for you, or more of a second or third option, on in other words 'line of defense'? You lean in a way that preserves your zhong ding, so I certainly wouldn't call it 'wrong'. Nonetheless, when I do fixed-step tuishou, be it slow or fast, I would generally aim to neutralize wherever possible only by sinking internally (yeah, one of those phrases again...), turning around my axis and shifting 'downwards' between foot and foot. For various reasons, both tactical and strategic, I would prefer to avoid leaning in this way and if I did - if I was making it more of a competition and less of a personal training session - it would still be a less-preferred option for me. But like I say, in this context you make it work very well for you! So what's your general attitude to 'leaning'? - That' last question is almost a pun, I see, but not intended.

[windwalker]

if I was making it more of a competition and less of a personal training session - it would still be a less-preferred option for me. But like I say, in this context you make it work very well for you! So what's your general attitude to 'leaning'? - That' last question is almost a pun, I see, but not intended.

In general, leaning ie moving off center is not good...
with out inner awareness

However with "awareness" it's not leaning as we view it...
If it was "leaning" the other person would just follow it faster and farther then the range of motion would allow...
there has to be inner and outer change for this method to work.

I would generally aim to neutralize wherever possible only by sinking internally (yeah, one of those phrases again...), turning around my axis and shifting 'downwards' between foot and foot.

Thats one way, not the method we use...
Before touch its over, if one can not empty themselves.
However testing or in practice one can allow the other person to try
.

Like this one. With Mr Lo, illustrate there is no fixed frame or point..that one can attach to. "following is leading, leading is following".
Ones 'intent" must be very strong to be able to empty before they move, or follow them after they move...
It's different...

[windwalker]

Sam Tam

explains it rather well..

He can do what he does because of inner and outer change...

[everything]

enjoyed that demo. i find that the words are not helpful. in particular the words "internal" and "silk reeling" are very misleading because people understand/mean something very different by it. if i could do what is shown in some videos, my understanding would be different. so my words would mean something different. but then if others could not do, they then wouldn't understand, either.

instead i just have to look at the phrase "inner and outer change" as a clue.

[windwalker]

instead i just have to look at the phrase "inner and outer change" as a clue.

Inner and outer change

more clues

[everything]

hahaha oh boy. i don't have any words. i can hear him say he is yang, i am yin and vice versa. maybe that's enough "words". will have to revisit.