Bao wrote:How the ball absorbs the attack is what is important. The surface doesn't resist or stops it through a structure, instead the surface follows the weapon through swallowing the force and spits it out, or re-directs it. The force to toss out the weapon is stored on the inside of the ball, not on the surface.
origami_itto wrote:
No.
Physics tells us that the elastic of the skin of the ball is what is deforming, absorbing the energy, and then releasing it back when the external force is completely dispersed.
The air is doing nothing but stretching the skin.
So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?
Steve James wrote:So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?
You're both right. The elasticity of the ball's surface allows it to deform, compressing the air inside, and because of that elasticity the pressure inside causes the ball to return to its original shape.
The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives.
everything wrote:what gets "tossed out" is rather important
Steve James wrote:The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives.
Well, technically, the air molecules are being compressed: i.e., a molecule on the inside edge of the volume is moved closer to molecule closer to the center (unless there is an equal deformation on the other side of the volume (ball)). That's easy enough to visualize, no? Anyway, it's pretty much the same physics as if a ball is simply dropped and bounces. The big difference here is that the guy throws (inputs) energy in addition to gravity. And then, there's the mass of the axe.
D_Glenn wrote:everything wrote:what gets "tossed out" is rather important
I don’t think it’s a demonstration of, or even analogous to Peng
But it is an example of 提放 Ti Fang (Lift and Release/ let go; or Toss Out) as when someone is mysteriously bounced away during push hands.
CXW has a theory that in the early 1900s when push hands competitions were openly displayed in public and someone was bounced out, then someone in the crowd would mention that it was a good Ti Fang, other people heard it as Fa Jin. Which was a something hidden from the public. And in some cases the Taiji guy would use a Bao Fali/ Fajin (explosive use of the spine and waist) to cause the Ti Fang. So soon the term Fajin became mistaken for just a Ti Fang occurrence. And that is how Fajin became synonymous with a Ti Fang.
And that’s why I use Bao Fali instead of Fajin.
If you’re in a good Chen Taiji school, they might still use Fajin (meaning the use of the spine, or Zhe Yao Xiong (fold waist and chest) as it’s known in Chen) and use the term Ti Fang when talking about when someone is bounced or tossed out during push hands.
.
Treatise 7 - Strength and Physics - Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan wrote:There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
48
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
The Song of Ward-off
How can we explain the energy of Ward-Off?
It is like water which supports
a moving boat.
First make the ch'i in the tan-t'ien substantial,
Then hold the head as if suspended
from above .
The whole body has the power of a spring.
Opening and closing should be
clearly defined .
Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds
of force,
We will float lightly and without difficulty.
Bao wrote:So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?
Steve James wrote:You're both right. The elasticity of the ball's surface allows it to deform, compressing the air inside, and because of that elasticity the pressure inside causes the ball to return to its original shape.
origami_itto wrote:The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives. [...]In this example the air is sung/ch'en, relaxed but but relaxed, peng is the skin elastic and bouyant
Steve James wrote:Well, technically, the air molecules are being compressed: i.e., a molecule on the inside edge of the volume is moved closer to molecule closer to the center (unless there is an equal deformation on the other side of the volume (ball)). That's easy enough to visualize, no? Anyway, it's pretty much the same physics as if a ball is simply dropped and bounces. The big difference here is that the guy throws (inputs) energy in addition to gravity. And then, there's the mass of the axe.
origami_itto wrote:Well when I think compression here I'm thinking in explicit terms, a measurable decrease in volume and increase in density. That can't be happening here because ...
D_Glenn wrote:Chen Man CHeng discussed this.Treatise 7 - Strength and Physics - Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan wrote:There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
48
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
I don't mean to contradict the professor, but I believe that it's more than the abdomen that is storing this energy. Otherwise he seems to line up with your way of thinking on that.
Also, the classics say this regarding Peng:The whole body has the power of a spring.
Opening and closing should be
clearly defined.
And really this is one of those things that you have to feel and have corrected to understand, IMHO. Without the reeling silk it does not work, the energy is lost, and we get so many misconceptions about how to fill the emptiness.
Is Das professorschtein talking about Peng here? I think he's talking about a different skill - one employed when Peng cannot be used.
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