The power of Peng

[wayne hansen]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CwiNBq2t ... BiNWFlZA==

[everything]

what gets "tossed out" is rather important

[Bao]

How the ball absorbs the attack is what is important. The surface doesn't resist or stops it through a structure, instead the surface follows the weapon through swallowing the force and spits it out, or re-directs it. The force to toss out the weapon is stored on the inside of the ball, not on the surface.

[origami_itto]

How the ball absorbs the attack is what is important. The surface doesn't resist or stops it through a structure, instead the surface follows the weapon through swallowing the force and spits it out, or re-directs it. The force to toss out the weapon is stored on the inside of the ball, not on the surface.

No.

Physics tells us that the elastic of the skin of the ball is what is deforming, absorbing the energy, and then releasing it back when the external force is completely dispersed.

The air is doing nothing but stretching the skin.

[Bao]

No.

Physics tells us that the elastic of the skin of the ball is what is deforming, absorbing the energy, and then releasing it back when the external force is completely dispersed.

The air is doing nothing but stretching the skin.

The skin is elastic and the incoming force reacts on the elasticity, yes. However, there's pressure inside of the ball and the external force is acting against it. If not, the skin would not be able to absorb the force in the same manner and it would not be able to return to its shape. Just put the skin empty on a wall and throw an axe on it, the elasticity won't protect itself from being split, the skin alone cannot absorb the incoming energy. It's the pressure of the air inside the ball that stretches the skin, not skin stretching itself. But I agree that my last sentence was not correct. It repels by the elasticity of the surface, when it returns to its shape as the external force is dispersed.

So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?

[Steve James]

So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?

You're both right. The elasticity of the ball's surface allows it to deform, compressing the air inside, and because of that elasticity the pressure inside causes the ball to return to its original shape.

[Giles]

Whatever the precise physics, it really is a great example of peng jin. Inspiring as an image and for supporting an intuitive feeling. Not "how do I become this kind of ball" (er, eat more...?) but very much "how do I organize and train my body so that, in the right moments, it behaves the same way as this ball?"

Presumably the guy thought the ball would burst under impact from the axe. Came close to winning a Darwin Award with this one.

[origami_itto]

So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?

You're both right. The elasticity of the ball's surface allows it to deform, compressing the air inside, and because of that elasticity the pressure inside causes the ball to return to its original shape.

The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives. It takes much more pressure than the skin is capable of resisting.

If the skin were rigid, it would break, no matter how much air were in it.

The skin wants to equalize the pressure, the air is passive. Like an arch, the surface takes the load, not the hollow.

You could get the same effect from an elastic band with no air at all.

In this example the air is sung/ch'en, relaxed but but relaxed, peng is the skin elastic and bouyant

[Steve James]

The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives.

Well, technically, the air molecules are being compressed: i.e., a molecule on the inside edge of the volume is moved closer to molecule closer to the center (unless there is an equal deformation on the other side of the volume (ball)). That's easy enough to visualize, no? Anyway, it's pretty much the same physics as if a ball is simply dropped and bounces. The big difference here is that the guy throws (inputs) energy in addition to gravity. And then, there's the mass of the axe .

[D_Glenn]

what gets "tossed out" is rather important

I don’t think it’s a demonstration of, or even analogous to Peng

But it is an example of 提放 Ti Fang (Lift and Release/ let go; or Toss Out) as when someone is mysteriously bounced away during push hands.

CXW has a theory that in the early 1900s when push hands competitions were openly displayed in public and someone was bounced out, then someone in the crowd would mention that it was a good Ti Fang, other people heard it as Fa Jin. Which was a something hidden from the public. And in some cases the Taiji guy would use a Bao Fali/ Fajin (explosive use of the spine and waist) to cause the Ti Fang. So soon the term Fajin became mistaken for just a Ti Fang occurrence. And that is how Fajin became synonymous with a Ti Fang.

And that’s why I use Bao Fali instead of Fajin.

If you’re in a good Chen Taiji school, they might still use Fajin (meaning the use of the spine, or Xiong Yao Zhedie (fold waist and chest) as it’s known in Chen) and use the term Ti Fang when talking about when someone is bounced or tossed out during push hands.

.

[origami_itto]

The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives.

Well, technically, the air molecules are being compressed: i.e., a molecule on the inside edge of the volume is moved closer to molecule closer to the center (unless there is an equal deformation on the other side of the volume (ball)). That's easy enough to visualize, no? Anyway, it's pretty much the same physics as if a ball is simply dropped and bounces. The big difference here is that the guy throws (inputs) energy in addition to gravity. And then, there's the mass of the axe .

Well when I think compression here I'm thinking in explicit terms, a measurable decrease in volume and increase in density. That can't be happening here because the force it takes to compress air to the point where it will store energy and release it back is much greater than the force the walls of the ball can offer. To compress the air you would have to get to the maximum possible elastic stretch of the ball and add more pressure. At that point, the ball is more likely to burst than allow any actual compression.

What the air does is just provide that constant tension that allows the elasticity to manifest. Too little air is like too relaxed, all tofu, too much is tense, like external, right in the middle you've got that point of song, relaxed but not relaxed. It's a tiny bit of held tension that allows the muscle-tendon complex to absorb the incoming force and store the energy until we're ready to release it. Zu, chansin, fa.

Same thing like holding the elastic band.

They always SAY relax, relax, relax, but really it's relax but not relaxed to allow for the eccentric contraction to store energy to release back out.

IF we don't redirect it.

what gets "tossed out" is rather important

I don’t think it’s a demonstration of, or even analogous to Peng

But it is an example of 提放 Ti Fang (Lift and Release/ let go; or Toss Out) as when someone is mysteriously bounced away during push hands.

CXW has a theory that in the early 1900s when push hands competitions were openly displayed in public and someone was bounced out, then someone in the crowd would mention that it was a good Ti Fang, other people heard it as Fa Jin. Which was a something hidden from the public. And in some cases the Taiji guy would use a Bao Fali/ Fajin (explosive use of the spine and waist) to cause the Ti Fang. So soon the term Fajin became mistaken for just a Ti Fang occurrence. And that is how Fajin became synonymous with a Ti Fang.

And that’s why I use Bao Fali instead of Fajin.

If you’re in a good Chen Taiji school, they might still use Fajin (meaning the use of the spine, or Zhe Yao Xiong (fold waist and chest) as it’s known in Chen) and use the term Ti Fang when talking about when someone is bounced or tossed out during push hands.

.

Chen Man CHeng discussed this.

There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
48
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

I don't mean to contradict the professor, but I believe that it's more than the abdomen that is storing this energy. Otherwise he seems to line up with your way of thinking on that.

Also, the classics say this regarding Peng:

The Song of Ward-off
How can we explain the energy of Ward-Off?
It is like water which supports
a moving boat.
First make the ch'i in the tan-t'ien substantial,
Then hold the head as if suspended
from above .
The whole body has the power of a spring.
Opening and closing should be
clearly defined .
Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds
of force,
We will float lightly and without difficulty.

Potato-tomato maybe? They're all sort of bound up together as concepts so when we talk about the phenomenon arising from their combination it's hard to point to the action of any single aspect. Song enables peng which makes fa jin to ti fang possible.

Fa jin in this context is to release the energy, let it go, send it away from you, it doesn't mean move your body fast or use a certain part of it. We build tension in the system, this might be just our body, or our body and an opponent, then find a vector to release that tension, their body and tension follows it. That's what I mean when I say more than the abdomen.

And really this is one of those things that you have to feel and have corrected to understand, IMHO. Without the reeling silk it does not work, the energy is lost, and we get so many misconceptions about how to fill the emptiness.

[everything]

yes.

on a side note, it's important not to actually fall down the "physics" rabbit hole. as i've said before, my dad was an actual (nuclear) physicist, also trained in mechanical engineering. as were his friends/colleagues interested in taijiquan. those scientists lucky enough to have been "pushed" in an "internal" way certainly had no "physics" explanations as we attempt to give here. you do have to feel it. but even then, i don't think you can explain it using all these words or points of views. at least i cannot, and i found that they (scientists including "physicists") could not. the more words from any tradition someone uses, the more i suspect he or she really doesn't know anything and probably hasn't felt "it" in any case. this is true in general (if you cannot explain it simply, you do not understand it well enough), but in particular on this subject matter.

[Taste of Death]

Words get in the way. You do have to feel it. That's the transmission. Through the hands, not the tongue. French filmmaker Chris Marker said about memory, "How can one remember thirst?" You can't. You know when you're thirsty.

[Appledog]

So in your view, is peng the elasticity of the surface or the pressure inside of the ball that keeps the shape together?

You're both right. The elasticity of the ball's surface allows it to deform, compressing the air inside, and because of that elasticity the pressure inside causes the ball to return to its original shape.

(sure,)

The air isn't being compressed. It can't compress because the skin gives. [...]In this example the air is sung/ch'en, relaxed but but relaxed, peng is the skin elastic and bouyant

(cute,)

Well, technically, the air molecules are being compressed: i.e., a molecule on the inside edge of the volume is moved closer to molecule closer to the center (unless there is an equal deformation on the other side of the volume (ball)). That's easy enough to visualize, no? Anyway, it's pretty much the same physics as if a ball is simply dropped and bounces. The big difference here is that the guy throws (inputs) energy in addition to gravity. And then, there's the mass of the axe .

(axe?)

Well when I think compression here I'm thinking in explicit terms, a measurable decrease in volume and increase in density. That can't be happening here because ...

(right,)

Chen Man CHeng discussed this.

There are times, however, when a force comes from the
front causing one side of the triangle to collapse. What
then would be the result? It is illustrated in the following diagram. As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without
deviating to the sides or up or down,
we no longer talk about turning left
or right or cycling up or down as the
way to yield. We talk only about
receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi
Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strong
attack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes
describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the
48
hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use
the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it
means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his
only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the
opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response
is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang. Fang means to
release. I then become a circle again. The opponent will
be at a loss as to what he can do and is thrown out a
great distance. This fa-chin (releasing strength) is a
unique characteristic of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

I don't mean to contradict the professor, but I believe that it's more than the abdomen that is storing this energy. Otherwise he seems to line up with your way of thinking on that.

Is Das professorschtein talking about Peng here? I think he's talking about a different skill - one employed when Peng cannot be used.

Also, the classics say this regarding Peng:

The whole body has the power of a spring.
Opening and closing should be
clearly defined.

And really this is one of those things that you have to feel and have corrected to understand, IMHO. Without the reeling silk it does not work, the energy is lost, and we get so many misconceptions about how to fill the emptiness.

Misconceptions?

Well, I think critical mass has been achieved here, so I ask, what is Peng -- really? Here we are talking about Peng like we know what it is, but it seems that people really don't even know what Peng is. Look, if it "could be more than one thing," that is not an excuse, it is just an admission that we can not pin it down to any one thing, or, that we are too lazy to enumerate. I am not saying I am not guilty. So I would ask,

1. How do you begin training Peng? What are the various levels and exercises of it? (We can understand it from the shared experience of training)
2. What is the hallmark of Peng that cannot be achieved by great leaning force? (We can understand it from identifying it as something unique)
3. How precisely is Peng (and Lu) related to silk reeling? (We can understand it in the context of shared theory developed from practice)

I don't expect an answer, as I can't write one down myself. I just think these questions are interesting

[origami_itto]

It's simple

First

Is Das professorschtein talking about Peng here? I think he's talking about a different skill - one employed when Peng cannot be used.

He's talking about it feng, which D Glenn mentioned. Try reading it again I can't explain more clearly.

But basically think cause and effect.

The root cause is song and ch'en, relaxed but not relaxed and sunken

From that, the springy energy of peng becomes possible.

The function of peng is to disperse that incoming energy across the whole body (skin of the balloon).

Someone's we can hua, but sometimes we meet it directly.

When peng has absorbed the energy and the opponent is no longer applying strength, we can fa Jin, release the energy back into them. If they are uprooted by the ga Jin, we can call that ti fang.