The power of Peng

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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:11 am

Appledog wrote:To recap, so far in the thread we find we need to develop a kind of sunk or heavy energy, or even a kind of lightness via possibly, standing and keeping the head alight -- okay, but we also know that isn't peng. I would point out there are too many videos of (especially older) masters with poor back and neck posture demonstrating excellent peng. Yet, so far no one has been able to explain what it is or how to train it. I would have expected at least one person to mention push hands, but I like what you have said here about two first timers. If someone could expand upon that I am sure we would find the answer.


No man, the sinking is to create the stretch. Once the stretch is there, it doesn't have to be ramrod straight. A bow is curved. But if you're curving while you're trying to establish that base condition, you're never going to get it.

To create it across the back you can open the back and rotate the shoulders out to push the scapula down and the fingertips towards each other, then expand that structure from the inside out... like inflating a balloon, contract from the outside in, like the air is coming out and the skin is unstretching.

Then work in the back with the stretch between bai hui and I forget the name but it's basically Jen Mo 1 around the taint/coccyx with the golden thread, sitting on the barstool idea. The sitting should also help you get the right feeling of springy roundness in the legs and hook that into the mix. This was last thing I've gotten. The springy feeling in the legs and the pressure from leg to leg.

In time it starts to feel a lot like a balloon structure coming from like the dantien to the mingmen and up the back, through the hip kwa to the bubbling well/k1. You can do the inflate and deflate as much as you can stand it. I like that and the up and down of beginning taiji as my main thing.

There's a lot of details I won't go into publicly, but that's the meat of it.

How I describe it to beginners is like standing.

When you are first born you don't know how to stand, it's the hardest thing you've ever done in your life, but you want it, so you work at it and you practice and you teach yourself what upright is and what balance is and how to maintain it. Like when you learn to drive at first there's a lot of variables that you have to track and control closely with a large amount of your attention, but in time the neural connections get set and reinforced and grown and the sense feedback loop is programmed and the thing that was once so impossible just becomes your default condition, you can do both that and a number of any other tasks simultaneously. Any threat to that balance supersedes all other concerns until you feel you have reestablished control.

And you get really good at that, the power that your body can unleash to maintain that balance is surprising and can be overwhelming, just ask anybody who winds up being caught up in a fall or recovery. USUALLY we can recover pretty easily though, it's just, not even second but FIRST nature. Breath, balance, heartbeat.

So point being, it's muscle and mind and senses coming together to make standing and walking and jumping and gymnastics possible in an additive fashion, working off that basic uprightness.

Peng is like uprightness but instead it's expansiveness. It's that sense of being that inflated ball with equalized pressure in all directions against the skin, maintaining the round shape. When force deforms that round shape it increases the pressure throughout the skin by an equal amount. In the case of a ball, the pressure is equal across the whole surface area, but as D_Glenn mentioned in the human body some of it takes it more than other.

With the human body the sphere is sort of conceptual, it can be as big as the universe or small enough to fit in your sleeve, really but the opening and closing of the whole body powers its operation. Consider forming the hook in single whip vs moving to the fully expanded posture. Tiny sphere in the hand and wrist, driven by the body, opening up to huge sphere across the back, also driven by the body. Same power in both movements.

That's the difference in my opinion between internal and external, for lack of a better word, external is a set of isolated pieces working together, internal is a truly unified whole. It's literally a transformation of the way the structure holds itself together and moves. That sounds trite, but once you really get what I mean it's profound.

It's not a bicep and a tricep into a deltoid into the trapezoids into the spinal muscles into the psoas and all that razmataz. It's a connection from fingertip to fingertip, and elastic force stored along the entire length can be expressed at any point. Also fingertip to foot, other foot, foot and headtop covering every inch in between.

No overwhelming load at any one place, but cumulatively, if we don't let it escape, we can send all that stored energy where we want it and even add a little more.

Starting with peng the way starting with uprightness leads to The Biles on Beam.

Kinda got on a roll there.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:13 am

GrahamB wrote:If you can't peng an axe off your face then are you even trying?


If you haven't lost two teeth to a flying beer bottle and summarily pulled the thrower out of his RV and put a knot so big over his eye he had trouble seeing for a couple days then... I don't know what I was trying to say I think the whole ax in the face idea just triggered a little PTSD
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:21 am

RobP3 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
RobP3 wrote:In the absence of the "punch whilst holding a glass of water" clips, I'm sure we all look forward to the "bounce an axe off with my peng" challenge.


I'll give a pass on the second one but working on the first for you.


;D nice one


When I first responded I thought you were somebody else lol.

I would have shot the video already but my cheap heavy bag split all the way around and is no longer viable. I want to get a wavemaster air/water deal but sort of working out what space I can claim without clashing with the wife and I don't want to put a halfway decent bag on the porch to get sun-fatigued and die in a year.

Bleh, I'm procrastinating expanding my media empire.

There really are some things I want to talk about around that whole thing and your response. I may just have to take a page of out Appledog's book and compel my stepson into being a demo partner.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby Appledog on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:33 am

origami_itto wrote:I may just have to take a page of out Appledog's book and compel my stepson into being a demo partner.


That doesn't make any sense to me but I can see why you would say it.

Anyways I think we've once again arrived at a position where we are confusing song chen with peng. This is not what CMC was quoted as saying either. He said if you cannot turn then then one must receive the attack. Peng is apparently something different. What we are calling "peng" here appears to be song chen or zhong chen ala "A person who is skilled with taijiquan gongfu has arms like cotton wrapped around iron, with extreme heaviness (zhong) and sinking (chen)." (full quote, by Yang Cheng fu). The zhong chen comes from song chen which comes from fang song. It's part of a formula, which many teachers might unwittingly not understand they have to teach to westerners. I don't think they with-hold it, it's just that I think most Chinese teachers are unsure at what we know and what we don't so they opt on the conservative side and don't explain anything.

I might not be able or willing to take a stab at what comes next but you are right, it's interesting and educational to go through the attempts :)

It is also interesting to me that you are the only one who was able to suggest a training method (standing). I agree, most people are going to have to start with standing. I think any posture is ok, but wuji is simple enough. I don't think it has to be a complex thing, at least in the beginning. If the goal is first to quiet down and approach fang song.
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:56 am

Appledog wrote:Anyways I think we've once again arrived at a position where we are confusing song chen with peng. This is not what CMC was quoted as saying either. He said if you cannot turn then then one must receive the attack. Peng is apparently something different. What we are calling "peng" here appears to be song chen or zhong chen ala "A person who is skilled with taijiquan gongfu has arms like cotton wrapped around iron, with extreme heaviness (zhong) and sinking (chen)." (full quote, by Yang Cheng fu). The zhong chen comes from song chen which comes from fang song. It's part of a formula, which many teachers might unwittingly not understand they have to teach to westerners. I don't think they with-hold it, it's just that I think most Chinese teachers are unsure at what we know and what we don't so they opt on the conservative side and don't explain anything.

I might not be able or willing to take a stab at what comes next but you are right, it's interesting and educational to go through the attempts :)


I don't personally feel I am confused there. Song and ch'en is a prerequisite for peng. It's not a gaurantee that peng is going to manifest but it's definitely required before you can really think realistically about achieving it.

Push hands before you have it is an absolute mistake in my opinion, that just sets you back as you substitute li.

When it comes to eventual expression, it's like, once again to borrow a metaphor from the music industry, cake.

WIth a song, every musician and writer brings an ingredient to the cake, when you bake it, every ingredient is critical, and any change to the ratios can have a profound effect on the final product. Therefore in the industry they write it all out beforehand who owns what because without that agreement, it's a 50/50/50/50/50 split between everyone involved.

Sort of the same thing with the manifested phenomenon in taijiquan, it's a combination of many factors.

We are correct in attempting to conceptually isolate the factors for the purpose of understanding, but we get into trouble when we start considering that one thing as the only thing or as functioning in isolation.

The continuous combination and interaction and evolution of the 8 gates and 5 steps produces all of the infinite changes. It isn't just one thing, ever.

It is also interesting to me that you are the only one who was able to suggest a training method (standing). I agree, most people are going to have to start with standing. I think any posture is ok, but wuji is simple enough. I don't think it has to be a complex thing, at least in the beginning. If the goal is first to quiet down and approach fang song.

I'm the only one here who isn't afraid to look like they don't have complete encyclopedic knowledge of all martial arts concepts and methods and is willing to give a sincere attempt at communicating about them to possibly change, increase, and enhance my understanding.

You gotta be wrong before you can be right.
Last edited by origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby BruceP on Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:27 am

BruceP wrote:
Appledog wrote: So I would ask,

1. How do you begin training Peng? What are the various levels and exercises of it? (We can understand it from the shared experience of training)
2. What is the hallmark of Peng that cannot be achieved by great leaning force? (We can understand it from identifying it as something unique)
3. How precisely is Peng (and Lu) related to silk reeling? (We can understand it in the context of shared theory developed from practice)

I don't expect an answer, as I can't write one down myself. I just think these questions are interesting ;D



Maybe just question #1 for now. Surely one of the teachers here can explain it simply and in plain language that a 10 year old can understand


Still nothing helpful or broadly relatable on the first Q

A few things jump out from what's been posted so far...

- developing peng in a vacuum/solo and then putting it to any kind of 'test' to check the body's retention/development/cultivation of peng is as hit as it is miss as a training method - it has to be tested as it's being worked/developed so the body learns it as a default response. If the exploration/development of peng starts out with solo work, it takes a lot of luck and happenstance for it to be congruent with whateverthehell it is their doing as partner work. It's like learning it all over again from scratch, and almost always takes years instead of months.

-Re: 'it has to be felt' Everyone develops and expresses peng differently because their body isn't any one else's, so their body arranges itself according to their body's use of itself, and as Appledog alluded to Re: masters, the prerequisite physical structure(s) that one presumes to lay out for the trainee is a blind alley as often as not for them. If a teacher sets out a bunch of physical alignment parameters as prerequisites of developing peng, they're hobbling the trainee by prescribing a thing that may otherwise be readily understood without all the bullshit of how to 'properly' shape and arrange the body.

- The shoulders don't 'connect' across the back - they connect across the chest. That's why the elbows shouldn't go behind the body, because when one of them does, the arm-bow is broken and the shoulders disconnect across the chest - no peng. No peng, no fajin. Also, there's no hook-hand in Wu's single whip for that reason, and other reasons.

- Peng can be played with and physically understood on a trainee's first day - without knowing anything about 'song', 'kua', 'bows' 'qigong'...or any of that other stuff ya'll been bouncing around on in this thread. It needs no verbose explanations of purpose or definition of a 'thing', as that gives the 'thing' context, and is another departure from Neutrality Principle.

It just seems like people are making up a lot of this stuff as they go along, what, with quoting masters and cobbling together a fragmented jumble of ideas based on those quotings as some sort of appeal to authority instead of understanding the empirical truth and knowledge that a trainee's mind-body dynamic already possesses.

Assuming the role of 'teacher' and assigning trainees the role of 'students' is another departure from Neutrality Principle. Don't be a teacher - be a learner
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:50 pm

Appledog wrote:Anyways I think we've once again arrived at a position where we are confusing song chen with peng. This is not what CMC was quoted as saying either. He said if you cannot turn then then one must receive the attack. Peng is apparently something different. What we are calling "peng" here appears to be song chen or zhong chen ala "A person who is skilled with taijiquan gongfu has arms like cotton wrapped around iron, with extreme heaviness (zhong) and sinking (chen)." (full quote, by Yang Cheng fu). The zhong chen comes from song chen which comes from fang song. It's part of a formula, which many teachers might unwittingly not understand they have to teach to westerners. I don't think they with-hold it, it's just that I think most Chinese teachers are unsure at what we know and what we don't so they opt on the conservative side and don't explain anything.


Oh for some clarity here,
fang song - release and relax
song ch'en - relax and sink

I don't think there is an appreciable difference between fang song and the song he refers to when he speaks about song and ch'en in the 13th treatise.

The main idea in the song I'm referring to is "relaxed but not relaxed" as it's describe elsewhere in the classics. We teach song, song, song, because it's so hard to release all of the irrelevant tension to even get to the actual desired modulation of tension that makes the energy work properly.

ti fang is the same word as in fang song - ti for lift and fang for release. Obviously to lift and release, one must release energy or fa jin.

So making a little more sense, the fang song or song and ch'en enables peng, peng can be used to ti fang.

This is all just internally consistent with Cheng Man Ching's writing and with the observations and writings of other lineage Yang and Wu masters.

I can admit that language is a poor medium for communicating useful understanding, but I think it's also safe to assume that we're not dealing with complete idiots here, right? Maybe not. Some folks seem to really be hung up on their own insecurity.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:36 pm

Pearls before swine. Never mind.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:05 am

Appledog wrote:To recap, so far in the thread we find we need to develop a kind of sunk or heavy energy, or even a kind of lightness via possibly, standing and keeping the head alight -- okay, but we also know that isn't peng. I would point out there are too many videos of (especially older) masters with poor back and neck posture demonstrating excellent peng. Yet, so far no one has been able to explain what it is or how to train it. I would have expected at least one person to mention push hands, but I like what you have said here about two first timers. If someone could expand upon that I am sure we would find the answer.

Zhan Zhuang + time = Peng

Xingyi has Peng, Bagua has Peng, Yiquan has Peng but with different qualities that feel differently because each art has different types of Zhan Zhuang.

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Re: The power of Peng

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:50 am

Ime, peng in tcc, like tcc, is more than one thing. Countless discussions over decades has illustrated that.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:50 pm


- developing peng in a vacuum/solo and then putting it to any kind of 'test' to check the body's retention/development/cultivation of peng is as hit as it is miss as a training method - it has to be tested as it's being worked/developed so the body learns it as a default response. If the exploration/development of peng starts out with solo work, it takes a lot of luck and happenstance for it to be congruent with whateverthehell it is their doing as partner work. It's like learning it all over again from scratch, and almost always takes years instead of months.

I would say that this is understandable but wrong.

First there's nothing stopping you from testing your peng under controlled circumstances or even engaging in cooperative partner drills. They have their place.

Trying free push hands before you've got at the very least a solid peng is just turning it into wrestling, it's a completely different mindsetb and conditioning. If you don't get that then we aren't talking about the same thing, and that's fine.
-Re: 'it has to be felt' Everyone develops and expresses peng differently because their body isn't any one else's, so their body arranges itself according to their body's use of itself, and as Appledog alluded to Re: masters, the prerequisite physical structure(s) that one presumes to lay out for the trainee is a blind alley as often as not for them. If a teacher sets out a bunch of physical alignment parameters as prerequisites of developing peng, they're hobbling the trainee by prescribing a thing that may otherwise be readily understood without all the bullshit of how to 'properly' shape and arrange the body.

I am not sure what you are saying here.

It has to be felt to be understood. It has to be cultivated to exist. You can't cultivate it without some sort of approach to conditioning the body. I've outlined some details of one approach. You may find satisfactory results doing completely different things and that's fine, it's just that is developing a different thing
- The shoulders don't 'connect' across the back - they connect across the chest. That's why the elbows shouldn't go behind the body, because when one of them does, the arm-bow is broken and the shoulders disconnect across the chest - no peng. No peng, no fajin. Also, there's no hook-hand in Wu's single whip for that reason, and other reasons.

There is a connection across the chest, and across the back. They work together. In the method I'm describing we're using the back explicitly to achieve the stretch and open.

When the back opens the chest closes and vice versa.

I'm not sure specifically what "that reason" is but I would love to hear more about your ideas concerning Wu style.

- Peng can be played with and physically understood on a trainee's first day - without knowing anything about 'song', 'kua', 'bows' 'qigong'...or any of that other stuff ya'll been bouncing around on in this thread. It needs no verbose explanations of purpose or definition of a 'thing', as that gives the 'thing' context, and is another departure from Neutrality Principle.

That may be. I'm slow, it took me a while to understand it and to get my body to start to express it, and I'm still working on strengthening that.

I only wish I had found you for a teacher in my first day so I could have gotten that lesson
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby origami_itto on Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:51 pm

Steve James wrote:Ime, peng in tcc, like tcc, is more than one thing. Countless discussions over decades has illustrated that.

Lots of different things with similar names.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:57 pm

Last edited by windwalker on Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby phil b on Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:44 pm

windwalker wrote:peng


Dear Diary,

It's the tail end of 2023, and people are still posting Harry Potter and the Power of Peng clips... make it stop.
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Re: The power of Peng

Postby everything on Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:29 pm

"down with woo woo... more mma! aargh" /s

;D :-\ :P
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/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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