Dont let a lack of knowledge stop you

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/ki5kZA-UgDk?si=WRL8FCwfwPYpkZHf

[GrahamB]

Pretty minimalist post there Wayne.

Here's the description of the video:

"Tai chi isn’t magic. It’s not mystical power. Taijiquan is basic wrestling fundamentals. The forms are shadow wrestling, the practical applications are pummeling, throws, sweeps, trips, and joint locks. Taichi is one of the simplest martial arts that has been horribly preserved and adulterated in the public consciousness."

Discuss

[Trick]

one of the simplest martial arts is actually somewhat head on the nail.
being the simplest kinda makes it the highest,while searching the highest makes it the most difficult.

[everything]

Nothing is stopping those folks from going to learn wrestling.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Steve James]

Pretty minimalist post there Wayne.

Here's the description of the video:

"Tai chi isn’t magic. It’s not mystical power. Taijiquan is basic wrestling fundamentals. The forms are shadow wrestling, the practical applications are pummeling, throws, sweeps, trips, and joint locks. Taichi is one of the simplest martial arts that has been horribly preserved and adulterated in the public consciousness."

Discuss

I'd argue that someone who knows wrestling can see the wrestling applications of/in tcc. The same goes for those who did boxing or fu jow pai. I think that tcc developed from earlier arts, or was a theory applied to earlier martial arts. Those martial arts worked or wouldn't have existed.

I'd say that Graham could find some things in tcc that are familiar to bjj. There's also a difference in vocabulary. For ex., wrestlers say "arm drag" and a tcc peep might say "lu."

[everything]

the very deceptive Rorschach test

[Steve James]

The caveat is that if the guy entered a mma tournament and did the same thing, how many people would say that he was doing tcc? If he did a form, how many would critique it? Otoh, would he show better than the tcc masters who've faced Xu?

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Grim reality is that traditional arts have a fairly indisputable track record of getting rolled by mediocre contemporary practitioners.
If it's about fighting it hasn't been very good at defending its validity in the realm. Classifying commentary from a contemporary practitioner trying to give it some useful context as "lacking knowledge" isn't helping much either. That said - someone "legit" posting a video with this concept in mind is rarer than a winter rose despite us contemporary dipshits being thick on the ground and desperate to trip over a better fighting method anywhere it is found.

TCMA is fun that way - however you do your form, it's wrong, unless you're someone specific in which case you're a demigod, but some other styles view that shen-fa as awful and incompatible with their own - so much so that a person could never hope to learn both. Don't forget you have to train at least 30 years in one thing to begin to understand, anyone jumping ship for any reason is already lost.

The corner gets smaller and smaller but fuck if the community doesn't keep painting.

[windwalker]

The caveat is that if the guy entered a mma tournament and did the same thing, how many people would say that he was doing tcc? If he did a form, how many would critique it? Otoh, would he show better than the tcc masters who've faced Xu?

Do you mean self proclaimed , master’s?

China is a big place , with a very different mindset than the west.
Xu, understanding this only deals with those who don’t publicly .

Privately he knows who not to engage and so does not.

Regarding the OP clip. Calling what one does Taiji does not make it taiji
His understanding of something's as basic as “Jin” not there.
Approaching it from a western viewpoint he relates it to grappling.

Those having the same level of understanding will tend to view it the same .

While not a wrong viewpoint, might be better to consider it as a not informed one

[Steve James]

But, the real tcc becomes like Santa Claus.

I've no doubt that there are people who do tcc that Xu hasn't met. No way to know whether he avoids them or vice versa. Anyway, I ain't getting into the tcc has to prove something in mma, or wrestling, or boxing. Mostly, I was saying that a wrestler coming to tcc would be able to see how something might look like an arm drag, for ex. Secondly, in fact, wrestling and pugilism in China pre-existed tcc. So, many people who took up tcc had experience in other martial arts.

I'd also argue that, in line with the thread title, it's possible for a tcc student to learn something from a wrestler or boxer, and vice versa.

[windwalker]

it's possible for a tcc student to learn something from a wrestler or boxer, and vice versa.

Off hand I’d say no.
Other than testing one’s understanding and training
The methods are quite different.

Have worked with boxers feeling some of the push hand skill sets might help in a clinch.
Have met grapplers from different methods.

Different skill sets.
Even among those who compete in push hands.
The skills developed are quite different.

Some of those doing so understanding this. Do so , because their focus is on competition
Not on taiji, directly.

Everyone has their own experience , don’t really get the point of using examples outside of
It to draw a conclusion from .

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

it's possible for a tcc student to learn something from a wrestler or boxer, and vice versa.

Off hand I’d say no.

This is the snooty part of Traditional arts that can chortle my ballsack.

I absolutely rip on competitive guys who have no ability to enjoy meditative or health-oriented practice... but at least they can fight.
If a decades-long traditional martial arts practice yields near-zero combative ability it is not longer a martial practice and ought to be honest about that or do the work to rediscover how to beat someone who didn't read the script.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[windwalker]

it's possible for a tcc student to learn something from a wrestler or boxer, and vice versa.

Off hand I’d say no.

This is the snooty part of Traditional arts that can chortle my ballsack.

I absolutely rip on competitive guys who have no ability to enjoy meditative or health-oriented practice... but at least they can fight.
If a decades-long traditional martial arts practice yields near-zero combative ability it is not longer a martial practice and ought to be honest about that or do the work to rediscover how to beat someone who didn't read the script.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Interesting

Could be right for you....

Everyone has an opinion, mine does not include emotion...

It does include

Decades of practice, experience based on working with those who did compete "full contact" back in the day,
judging CMA events, actively competing in some events at one time..
Working with those who boxed, different types of grapplers...ect...

Lot of respect for those who do compete...and practice to compete...

The point of which is to win the event,,,,a mind set....meaning the focus is very different..
More so if one is working on or with what are called internal methods...

Yes...

The practice of other things, will not do much for ones own practice outside of maybe some testing
which is recommended depending on level, understanding, and focus of ones practice.

Otherwise there is not really much to gain from it....

My opinion...could be wrong..

[origami_itto]

You can learn something from anyone.

I doubt a boxer knows anything that would make your Taijiquan better other than how to give you a hard time for your Taijiquan you deal with.

[wayne hansen]

If u have good tai chi basics you can learn off everyone
I got a great deal from wrestlers
I remember throwing a punch at George Barnes he neutralisée it like a Ba Kua master
Next thing my feet were above his head and my head facing the floor
He said do you know what the hard part is now
Making your feet hit the floor before your head does
We don’t have a tradition of wrestling here in Aus like you do in the states
However I was lucky enough to have two cousins who were Australian Champions and an uncle who was a wrestling and boxing coach
So plenty of painful free lessons