2023 Taiwan push hands championships

[windwalker]

2023 Taiwan push hands championships

All Japan Federation of Athletic Promoters
It is the only competitive pusher organization (Taiwan rules) in Japan.

Note: random clip posted to show the push hand flavor of the event.

not affiliated with the group nor any of the groups at the event.

[ThomasK]

All I see is a worse version than your usual Sumo matches...

[windwalker]

All I see is a worse version than your usual Sumo matches...

Interesting any examples of work meeting your expectations.

[ThomasK]

https://youtu.be/54QBhMJnApk?si=EDbeMdlWOC_g1aqw

Starting at 10 minutes. Mini player disabled.

Just wondering why you spend so much time learning routines and changes during pushing when all it boils down to in the end is two people leaning on each other, then one turns and the other loses balance.

Perhaps I'm ignorant

No Tai Chi clips come to mind, sorry.

[Bao]

Sometimes a name is just a name.

[windwalker]

https://youtu.be/54QBhMJnApk?si=EDbeMdlWOC_g1aqw

Starting at 10 minutes. Mini player disabled.

Just wondering why you spend so much time learning routines and changes during pushing when all it boils down to in the end is two people leaning on each other, then one turns and the other loses balance.

Perhaps I'm ignorant

No Tai Chi clips come to mind, sorry.

"ignorant" Perhaps you and others may be...
For example

Sometimes a name is just a name.

To think its sumo,,, it may look like sumo depending on skill level.
The rule set is quite different...it is a competition that people train for understanding that its a way of competing for what ever their reasons are for doing so...To think it is or like sumo is ignorant...
Something one can find out directly by meeting those who play sumo or push hands...

Not a fan of push hands as I've mentioned many times...
However saying this, it is one accepted way of testing among many who practice taiji in China, Taiwan ect.

The question about what I do or not is better asked of those who do...
It's not something I do, nor recommend but do understand the reasons others may...for example in this
thread

For taiji practitioners, who talk about or write what they do.

Out side of their normal interactions its a way test among those they don't know
and meet others...for those seeking such interactions...



In Taiwan, it was interesting and fun...meeting others chatting about taiji in general.
Testing what one claims, in a somewhat controlled fashion...

Allows one to talk about taiji relative to what one can really do,,,
not just talk about it..many know the theory..

Again not something I specifically practice or practice for, but when asked by others about ones practice...outside of demos
its a way to test using what they train for, how they gauge practices...
Allows me to then introduce my practice and method for those interested.

talk is talk..until.

Posted the thread for those who do practice and compete feeling they might be interested in it..

An after thought reflecting my own meetings with some of the taiji people in Taiwan who are quite skilled in the practice
very open and willing to test their skill among those interested...

Should one go there, the many parks with different groups...
often the groups are curious about the level of ones practice..

good way to show differences if one has the skill the to do so..
Or find out they may not have the skill they feel they have...

happens

[Bao]

Just to make it clear, It was not I who said it looks like Sumo. I find that statements just as much as an insult to Sumo, as I find it insulting to call it Tai Chi.

Push hands is at its best a semi-cooperative sensitivity exercise. Before the Chen village guys introduced wrestling competitions disguised as "push hands" Tai Chi people would enter sanda competitions if they wanted to win a trophy or show off their fighting skills.

[windwalker]

No Tai Chi clips come to mind, sorry.

The practice stems from a type of training designed to develop, enhance certain skill sets taiji is/was noted for.
Many different levels and methods of practice among different taiji practices..each done according to their focus.

Competition level, an amalgamation of all practices using an accepted rule set the competitor's understand and train for.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBNeYmzEsUA

a friend who took 3rd in his division 45-70 yrs he at 65.
sent me a clip of a match he felt was interesting.
Its one thing to watch something feeling one can deal with it, often quite another when actually having to deal with it.

Often what happens, the players start to question themselves after being successful...in this environment..

Master Wang competed regularly in push hands events in Taiwan, with both national and international participants. He was push hands champion for several years winning international competitions. However, he felt discouraged because so much physical force and technique was required to defeat an opponent.

He had read the tai chi classics which talked about softness and "four ounces moving a thousand pounds", but this was not evident in tai chi push hands in present use. Only after meeting Grandmaster Huang did he realize that soft power could be achieved. He studied with Huang, when he visited Taiwan and realized he had to give up his prior emphasis on strength and technique.

What then happens for most, they stop or don't enter into public competitions
any more reaching an understanding of their practice.

[Steve James]

Tai Chi people would enter sanda competitions if they wanted to win a trophy or show off their fighting skills.

Yeah, "sanda" started in the 70s, and the emphasis was/is on full contact, which was the thing at the time. I'd never heard of a push hands competition.

I do agree that phs is cooperative, but the question is how does one cooperate? Imo, it's obviously about improving skills, but the partner has to help. It "shouldn't be" about winning. There's the rub. That's not to say that the phs one sees in tournaments isn't a skill. Though, the best illustrations would be of very small people beating very large ones, not of a large person pushing a small one. It's also unfair, imo, to say it isn't tcc. I think that's a criticism of a lack of finesse. Any tcc student who competes will be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Here's an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzLJou_whco

Here's phs v mma.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zfxRaRWx7MY[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zfxRaRWx7MY

[windwalker]

Tai Chi people would enter sanda competitions if they wanted to win a trophy or show off their fighting skills.

Yeah, "sanda" started in the 70s, and the emphasis was/is on full contact, which was the thing at the time. I'd never heard of a push hands competition.

In China, and Taiwan ph hand a common way of testing, historically among masters and students.

Chin
was introduced to Kuo by his tai chi teacher, Lau Yee Sing. “When I watched him demonstrate, I had some doubts,” confesses Chin, “because his tai chi was not as big frame and graceful.

It was not square or circular and a little hard. So Master Kuo asked me to root in a bow stance and put both arms in front of my chest. His hands touched my elbows lightly. Suddenly, he shook his body and I flipped into the air and fell ten feet away.

I was very surprised and totally convinced. It was the first time I felt fajing (explosive power.”

I do agree that phs is cooperative, but the question is how does one cooperate?
By agreeing to a rule set if competitive..If not by the act of ph within a given format thought to enhance or train, certain skill sits.

Imo, it's obviously about improving skills, but the partner has to help. It "shouldn't be" about winning. There's the rub. That's not to say that the phs one sees in tournaments isn't a skill. Though, the best illustrations would be of very small people beating very large ones, not of a large person pushing a small one. It's also unfair, imo, to say it isn't tcc. I think that's a criticism of a lack of finesse. Any tcc student who competes will be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Here's an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzLJou_whco

Here's phs v mma.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zfxRaRWx7MY

Look at it differently..

competition is good on many levels as long as those competeting understand what its about..."winning"
Don't know of any competitor who enters an event, not thinking about overcoming the other opponent.

Of those I've met all say it's not about winning but, in the end it is....unless the skill level is so different
it makes or forces the other to acknowledge, certain truths, ie do not use force.
Understand what emptiness is and means. ect..


Usually errors are fixed by going back and examining the basic solo practice...

For some it's hard to let go despite obvious skill sets they feel they know.
When experienced they find they cannot do or duplicate... the start of inquiry...
Accounts for the many demos questioned...as being cooperative or faked..

In Taiwan, talked about this among the locals,,,we all laughed as they experienced what they would have noted as being faked had they watched a clip of it...

telling them to stop faking it, them replying "i'm not"

The higher taiji skill, the more skill it takes to illicit the same reactions.

Not a fan of push hands as a practice... a good medium for addressing errors in practice.
Provided one has the skill level to illustrate the skill....

Between those of equal skill looking for skill through ph,
feel it would be quite difficult to do so, which is why one needs someone who has true, tai chi skill set..as an example...

The higher level the skill, the more it seems to be questioned "until" one encounters it..

It seems even doing so many go through rationalization process, attempting to understand and quantify what's happening?...

A good example "do not use force, use Yi". often said but not often really demoed when it is
most tend to question what they see...

In Taiwan,, the competitions are good for developing the different groups and interest in traditional physical arts of the past...
meeting people and giving some an indirect goal oriented practice,
a little bit more clear than practicing how to be become empty.


Most people around the 10yr mark start to question the practice...
The Chinese talk of 缘分" (yuánfèn) the fate of meeting people...

In this not everyone is the same...a saying

"When the student is ready, a teacher will appear, when the teacher is ready to teach a student will appear."

[origami_itto]

Competition is good if it's about using Taijiquan. The problem is that it's very difficult to define Taijiquan in a set of rules in a way that doesn't set up conditions that can be solved by a number of different approaches.

Strength and speed are not bad, but the chief strategy of Taijiquan is NOT to beat the opponent with speed and strength (I mean... not like THAT at least)

Correct Taijiquan produces more strength faster.

NIko's approach there is much more like what I favor. I see that in that exchange he learned and improved, so he won by all accounts.

[Steve James]

Well, afa competition, you'll never see a phs "competition" among recognized "masters." For one thing, there's too much face to "lose." So, if/when they do get together it'll be for a friendly "demonstration" in street clothes that might turn a little pushy, but prove nothing. The really serious ... um, debates, between representatives of styles have been full contact matches using the best of their respective styles. Ok, the most famous tcc v tcc phs I've seen was a Taiwanese master v one from Beijing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

My only observation is that it doesn't look like the deep postured flowing phs exercise I've seen Chen style, for ex., practice. That's not a criticism because I think that low basin stuff is a great form of jibengong. Or, from the Yang perspective, going through developing/practicing the "peng, lu, li, an" principles.

Anyway, as John Wang might say, "Where's the finishing move?" Then again, suppose one gets really good at phs, what's next? If there's a next step, where's the competition for that? Tcc can't possible all push, can it?

Ya know, I might argue this is better prep. I'd love to see a phs tournament where people did this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLsY4eyPpi4

[Bao]

I do agree that phs is cooperative, but the question is how does one cooperate? Imo, it's obviously about improving skills, but the partner has to help. It "shouldn't be" about winning. There's the rub.

IMHO and IME, the most rewarding free style PH practice is when we, the players, put each other in bad positions and we help each other to get out from there. So if my partner is about to push me over, he will stop in that position and give me chance to get out of it. We will also be aware of, and track, each other mistakes and help each other to not make them and improve our all over game.

PH is like two people playing the piano together. In the "competitive" manner, the game is to play better than the other, and when someone is playing wrong, the other person just smirks and keep on playing. But in a semi-cooperative, helpful manner, you will tell the other person when he makes a mistake and you two will also tell each other how you both can improve and play better. This way both will learn more and improve faster.

[Steve James]

I totally agree with you Bao. Anyway, the way we were taught, the idea of cooperation was also that one partner would "push" for real (i.e., with intent) and finish, then it was the other partner's turn. What wasn't supposed to happen as one person push forward and just continue to try to get the partner. The exception was in specific sensitivity exercises that I'm sure everyone has seen.
Imo, as an exercise, the back and forth is the cooperative/competition. This way both sides get to practice offense and defense.

[windwalker]

Push hands, depends on the level of interactions.
At a master level, the distinctions are very clear..


Master Huang Tai Chi Chuan/ Push Hands


It's really not possible to "push" as done in the competitive practices with those who have reached a certain level..
Master Huang's work reminiscent of the type of work we did in Beijing...


Taiji Push Hands originally called 'Twisting hands'- Master Huai Hsiang Wang

An interesting interview reflecting much of my own views.. echoed by some of the older teachers in Taiwan I've met talking about the current direction and practices of the art...Should one want to establish a group they must have a way of distinguishing their practice..
One way is by meeting with others and showing ones work...


Someone mentioned noted masters not competing

They do and did, only now a days not in a public venue.

push hands competition from 1992 showing some of the biggest names in mainland taiji all competing against one another. They are all grandmasters.

lots going on in the clip....

For those looking for something they like to see in others.
Why not be the example that one is looking for...