2023 Taiwan push hands championships

[Steve James]

For those looking for something they like to see in others.
Why not be the example that one is looking for...

Isn't that what you do? Who talks about things they don't do?

Anyway, that last vid of masters pushing is interesting. Who won?

[windwalker]

For those looking for something they like to see in others.
Why not be the example that one is looking for...

Isn't that what you do? Who talks about things they don't do?

Anyway, that last vid of masters pushing is interesting. Who won?

what I talk/post about I can do.
What I don't do is compete nor practice push hands practice
as done by those who practice for competitions......

Don't mind interacting with them occasionally testing my own theories and work..

For some I am an example,
Just as others serve as an example for me...

the masters.

This is a push hands competition from 1992showing some of the biggest names in mainland taiji all competing against one another. They are all grandmasters.

First bout: Li En-jiu vs. unknown. Li is a Chen stylist that studied under Hong Jun-sheng.

Second: Wei Shu-ren vs. Men hui-feng.

Wei is a Yang stylist known for advocating the "no force" perspective.
Men is THE top wushu teacher in China , a leading proponent of wushu taiji, practices everything under the sun, and was awarded the first 10 duan rank by the Chinese government.
Yes I know, no one's ever heard of him. He's unknown in the West.

Third bout: Li Bing-ci vs. Lin Mo-gen. Li is a Wu stylist. Lin was a top student of Li Ya-xuan (a disciple of YCF).

Fourth bout: Liu Cheng-de vs. unknown. Liu is a Chen stylist again from the Hong lineage and is in one of my favorite push hands clips.

Fifth bout: Xin Yu-he vs. Men Hui-feng. I know nothing about Xin. Maybe someone can fill me in.

Didn't look at it as "winning" see it as a demo of contrasting methods, expression of ones practice.
Wei Shu-ren student of Wang Yongquan,,,

[Steve James]

Didn't look at it as "winning" see it as a demo of contrasting methods, expression of ones practice.
Wei Shu-ren student of Wang Yongquan,,,

Hmm, but when I agreed with Bao and said phs, imo, is not about winning, you replied:

Look at it differently..

competition is good on many levels as long as those competeting understand what its about..."winning"
Don't know of any competitor who enters an event, not thinking about overcoming the other opponent.

Of those I've met all say it's not about winning but, in the end it is....unless the skill level is so different
it makes or forces the other to acknowledge, certain truths, ie do not use force.
Understand what emptiness is and means. ect..

Anyway, sure, masters will push hands with each other. But, it's not about winning (esp in street clothes) in private among friends. It's friendly sharing, if they're not trying to learn.

[wayne hansen]

If they are not trying to win why is there so much use of awkward strength

[windwalker]

If they are not trying to win why is there so much use of awkward strength

A perception that stems from one's own inner lens...
Don't know what they were trying to do, only the way I viewed it...

What I see and look for may be different then what others see and look for...


awkward strength

donno, maybe something you might address to direct students or those who were there...
My bet would be there would be very few people who could ph with them as the other teachers
there at the time...having the same or near the same level...did...

In general the higher the level the less outer movement often confusing those who watch
expecting the same reactions as those not at the same level or close to it...

My point in posting the clip was in answer about whether masters competed or tested their skill sets..
Lots of anecdotal stories, very few clips of them in action...

After dinner Zheng Manqing

demonstrated his form and asked Zhang Qinlin to do likewise. Zheng watched and saw Zhang do the 81-Step and thought, "Nothing special." Zheng Manqing then asked Zhang Laoshi to push hands with him.

Zhang Laoshi looked at Zhang Zhijiang and OId Man Pu" with a questioning expression. Zhang then said to Zheng Manqing, "Do you really want to push hands with me?" Zheng replied, "Yes." After making sure everyone agreed, Zhang Laoshi consented.

Zhang Laoshi was just deflecting right, deflecting left. He then made a Ji, and Zheng Manqing flew - over the table and into the wall, which almost fell over." Pu bingru (who was laughing while telling the story) said that the impact left a hole in the wall, and Zheng Manqing, after crashing into the wall, slumped to the ground.

Everyone ran over, picked him up while asking if he was okay. Zheng stood up (a little shaken but not hurt - the outcome was not what he had anticipated) then went to his knees and said to Zhang Laoshi, You must take me as your student."

how or what happend often not questioned because it's not seen....
only in the minds eye according to ones own experience...

[Bao]

If you let your opponent attach his strength on you, then you have already done a mistake. If you let your opponent attach his strength on you, and you struggle directly against his strength, it's a big fault. Yang against yang, strength against strength. From a Tai Chi perspective you can definitely call it awkward.

IME, the aspect that seems hardest for practitioner to understand, and the most sensitive part, is to not let your opponent attach his strength on you. However, some people who do understand this, still like to offer some resistance to the opponent to get something to work with. But at the same, you'll give your opponent something to work with and take advantage of.

In general the higher the level the less outer movement often confusing those who watch

Perfectly true. However, if you by your own experience understand the principles of not attaching strength against strength (yang against yang), you will also understand when there is less movement because of attachment and stagnation, or if it is because of sensitivity as the players are sensing each other, anticipating and adjusting to the other person's intent. In fact, a Tai Chi player with a decent amount of experience and knowledge about this principles, should be able to immediately spot what is what. Stagnation due to exertion of strength, or stillness caused by sensitivity and anticipation.

[Bao]

...

The biggest problem as I see it, speaking about PH wrestling competitions, is that most of participants haven't studied Tai Chi long enough, so they haven't been able to internalize tai chi principles. If they even understand them. People who have practiced tai chi for a longer time have mostly already lost interest in competing. And most of those who are interested in competing, practice competition PH solely for the reason of competition. Then there's not even the correct mindset to even begin internalizing "real Tai Chi". They spend their time on practicing competition techniques, and no time on practicing and perfecting the subtle principles and methods that would lead to real Tai Chi skill.

Competition PH practice and developing traditional Tai Chi skills belong to two different worlds. You can't really put down one foot in one of them and the other foot in the other. You would need to spend all of your available time and all your focus to become good at one of them. If you want to translate one type of skill into the context of the other, you need to focus on one first and become really good at what you are doing. If you try to mix things up before you have a solid foundation in what you are doing, all your time and effort spent would just lead to half-assed results.

[origami_itto]

Just do Tai Chi, and do push hands, when you meet Yang Lu Chan he can tell you if your art is pure enough.

[windwalker]

Competition PH practice and developing traditional Tai Chi skills belong to two different worlds. You can't really put down one foot in one of them and the other foot in the other. You would need to spend all of your available time and all your focus to become good at one of them. If you want to translate one type of skill into the context of the other, you need to focus on one first and become really good at what you are doing. If you try to mix things up before you have a solid foundation in what you are doing, all your time and effort spent would just lead to half-assed results.
.

agree the practices are different...


As mentioned not a fan of ph , do understand the rational for those who do practice and for others that compete.
Don't feel there are any problems with what they do or practice for.



Thread posted for those who do compete or practice it as a main part of their practice.
Interesting discussion.

For those visiting Taiwan or in...

2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan 和平公園 (he2 ping2 gong1 yuan2). still active with many informal ph groups, solo practice groups reflecting a wide variety of interest and practices
more or less open to all interested at varying levels of play and focus.

[Steve James]

Well, I do think it's informative to see how others compete in phs. For me, it's not to say which is better or if any is useless. There are far more interesting things to discuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B16EDbq8PqY

[BruceP]

...

The biggest problem as I see it, speaking about PH wrestling competitions, is that most of participants haven't studied Tai Chi long enough, so they haven't been able to internalize tai chi principles. If they even understand them. People who have practiced tai chi for a longer time have mostly already lost interest in competing. And most of those who are interested in competing, practice competition PH solely for the reason of competition. Then there's not even the correct mindset to even begin internalizing "real Tai Chi". They spend their time on practicing competition techniques, and no time on practicing and perfecting the subtle principles and methods that would lead to real Tai Chi skill.

Competition PH practice and developing traditional Tai Chi skills belong to two different worlds. You can't really put down one foot in one of them and the other foot in the other. You would need to spend all of your available time and all your focus to become good at one of them. If you want to translate one type of skill into the context of the other, you need to focus on one first and become really good at what you are doing. If you try to mix things up before you have a solid foundation in what you are doing, all your time and effort spent would just lead to half-assed results.

Fair points and not wrong, but I don't necessarily agree.

It is possible to work with unbridled competitive aggression while exploring tjq's internal method. It's actually quite easy.

Change the format so that each player is working from a point of failure and their only means of applying their tjq is by first learning it as a recovery method. It starts with both being in compromised positions, and they very carefully, sneakily, and usually with the lightness of great trepidation, work their way toward equilibrium. From the perspective of where they're starting, just gaining equilibrium looks pretty good.

[windwalker]

[

It is possible to work with unbridled competitive aggression while exploring tjq's internal method. It's actually quite easy.

Change the format so that each player is working from a point of failure and their only means of applying their tjq is by first learning it as a recovery method. It starts with both being in compromised positions, and they very carefully, sneakily, and usually with the lightness of great trepidation, work their way toward equilibrium. From the perspective of where they're starting, just gaining equilibrium looks pretty good.

nice

What I found

Many understood the theory of what should be.
Do not have a clear hands on example of what it is..

When they met it....its quite interesting...would require a re-orientation of their practice should they want to follow it,
something many are not really willing to do. "invest in loss" feeling what they do, works for what they do...

As Bao, mentioned once one's skill sets are somewhat developed it is interesting to go out and test it.
"for ten yrs he does not go out the door" an often quoted saying alluding to this...

As a practice ie with the different groups, the focus is different as was pointed out...
all good depending on what one is looking for.

Not really good for continued development, different paths.

[wayne hansen]

All the stories of people flying over the table and getting their head stuck in the wall aside
I see what I see
Just the fact the first guy looses his balance after an awkward plush on his partner
His shoulders go up his arms lock out that is enough for me
No borrowing of his opponents strength just a bull at a gate