Comparison of Chen Pao Chui and changes

[Urs Krebs]

As per comments I made in the past about Chen FaKe changing the Laojia form (the New Frame is entirely a different thing), what has been pointed out to me is that I am seeing early Chen FaKe Beijing version versus later Chen village version of the forms.
That is an important distinction. Who actually changed the forms?

For example the posture shown here (in the 4 videos I posted above)
video 1 - Du Yu Ze style look at 2:10-13
video 2 - Chen Fake's oldest early student in Beijing look at 2:42
video 3 - Feng ZhiQiang also early Chen Fake student in Beijing look at 2:58+

Video 4 - Chen Village style look at 2:59-3:01.
That is a DRASTIC posture change.

The original sequence came from using the sword and follows through into the subsequent movements, in the first 3 videos it is obvious from sword fighting techniques.
Chen village video 4 shows something very impractical to do and changes the function of the postural movements very much.

And that is one example of many changes. The changes to the form change the function of the movements.

Video 2 and video 3: Lei Muni was an early student. Feng Zhiqiang was probably one of his last students but for sure not an early student, he studied the last 7 years of Chen Fake with him.

Chen Zhaopi who was the teacher of f.e. Chen Zhenglei in Video 4 was son and disciple of his father Chen Dengke, but he also studied with other people like Chen Fake but also Chen Xin who is considered today from Xiao Jia lineage. Therefore it is possible that his Er Lu is different of the Er Lu from Chen Fake. Different lineages, different postures, so difficult to understand?

[Bao]

Chen Zhaopi who was the teacher of f.e. Chen Zhenglei in Video 4 was son and disciple of his father Chen Dengke, but he also studied with other people like Chen Fake but also Chen Xin who is considered today from Xiao Jia lineage. Therefore it is possible that his Er Lu is different of the Er Lu from Chen Fake. Different lineages, different postures, so difficult to understand?

There's nothing from small frame in CZL's version. The Pao chui might have come from CDK. Many teachers and practitioners change or add their own things acc to their own understanding. I agree with salcanzonieri that it looks like some of the original function and meaning has been lost. The Chen village guys have another focus in their practice, so they might have made changes according to their own focus.

[Urs Krebs]

Chen Zhaopi who was the teacher of f.e. Chen Zhenglei in Video 4 was son and disciple of his father Chen Dengke, but he also studied with other people like Chen Fake but also Chen Xin who is considered today from Xiao Jia lineage. Therefore it is possible that his Er Lu is different of the Er Lu from Chen Fake. Different lineages, different postures, so difficult to understand?

There's nothing from small frame in CZL's version. The Pao chui might have come from CDK. Many teachers and practitioners change or add their own things acc to their own understanding. I agree with salcanzonieri that it looks like some of the original function and meaning has been lost. The Chen village guys have another focus in their practice, so they might have made changes according to their own focus.

Well, I didn't write that CZL's version has Xiao Jia influence. I wrote that his teacher CZP learnt from different teachers and that all that had an impact on what he was later teaching to his students. I'm also not a fan of terms like "the Chen village guys". Within Chenjiagou are different teachers, lineages, levels etc. The same in Beijing: different teachers, lineages, levels...

[Bao]

I'm also not a fan of terms like "the Chen village guys". Within Chenjiagou are different teachers, lineages, levels etc. The same in Beijing: different teachers, lineages, levels...

Fair enough. With "the Chen village guys" I mean the public figures people regarded as the leaders of Chen style. Chen Zhenglei, Chen Xiao Wang and a couple of others who I don't care about remembering their names.

[everything]

same questions here. so-and-so taught so-and-so. then what? suppose we trace messi's coaches back 10 generations... so what? then what? what if you "prove" the Big Bang existed? then what? what are humans trying to learn?

[Bao]

what if you "prove" the Big Bang existed?

There are proofs for the BB.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/N3vmjS24ZrY

[everything]

right but does it repeat? what happened "before" it? etc.

other than it's fascinating (and it's hard to argue against the idea that the origin of everything is the most fascinating thing there is, or at least more fascinating to more people than weird, niche IMA "history"), why do we want to know what came before this, and then what came before that? what came before Zhang Sanfeng? Why would we care, more or less? Why should we care? Why do we care? Do we want to have one of those through-time GOAT debates? Like Ali vs. Tyson? Messi vs. Maradona? Jordan vs LeBron? Something else? I guess if it's for idle speculation, there is some entertainment value.

[Graculus]

Well, telling our history, or the history of our tradition, is a very human activity – it’s a defense against the ephemeral and forgetting. In that sense, by arguing over things in RSF, we are reaffirming our history to an audience that more or less cares about it (and heaven knows, that would be hard to find in many other places).


Graculus
Https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Steve James]

Well, telling our history, or the history of our tradition, is a very human activity

It's one of our specie's defining characteristic. Every modern human society has an origin story. It's something we imagine or create. It's no different than a child wanting to know their parents.

What we pass on, however, are stories about places we could never be told by people who've never been there. Martial arts began long before people wrote them down. We can argue that they started with a Buddhist monk or at the Shaolin temple, or in a valley somewhere nearby; but we've only been told that. Telling the stories will keep them alive, but has no relation to whether they're true or how true they may be.

I think it's worthwhile to discuss, even argue, but shouldn't be taken too seriously. I.e., ok, what if there wasn't a big bang (i.e., a point where this universe began), then what? A scientist will say it's something we can't know. So, your guess is as good as anyone else's.

[everything]

Who taught Zhang Sanfeng (if he existed) is also (more?) unknowable.

But sure, I get it in the sense that nerdy fans love Harry Potter and I cannot get into it, lol.

Humans are funny

[salcanzonieri]

Who taught Zhang Sanfeng (if he existed) is also (more?) unknowable.

But sure, I get it in the sense that nerdy fans love Harry Potter and I cannot get into it, lol.

Humans are funny

Who taught Zhang SanFeng is knowable and has been documented and there are posts here in this forum from 10 years ago that presented the info.

And, Zhang SanFeng learned Yi JinJing from Shaolin, which greatly influenced his sword fighting, which was what he was known for. Far from being the founder of Tai Chi (was was made up by people who wanted a Taoist origin not a Buddhist) of was a great influence on the founder of Tong Bei, Dong Cheng. And this founder of Tong Bi (the original name) learned Shaolin from two different teachers, who taught him Hong Quan, Rou Quan, Tai Tzu Chang Quan, and Pao Quan. Also he was a spear expert.
Dong later studied with Zhang SanFeng and his internal art (Shaolin Yi Jin Jing and Sword) and applied that material to his Shaolin and Spear techniques and changed his Tong Bi Quan to Tong Bei Quan. Later still he visited Chen village and exchanged what he knew. Hence Chen village practiced Shaolin Hong Quan and Pao Quan and Tong Bei Quan. which later morphed into the early material to led to what is now called Tai Ji Quan.

There are many discussions about all this in previous topic posts in this forum, from years ago.

[Urs Krebs]

Christmas time is fairytale time. Disney brings a movie (Wish this year) and Sal brings Shaolin and Zhang Sanfeng. Jeeezzzzzz..........

[salcanzonieri]

Christmas time is fairytale time. Disney brings a movie (Wish this year) and Sal brings Shaolin and Zhang Sanfeng. Jeeezzzzzz..........

Common knowledge for many.

[everything]

if it were all true, then what? how far back do we try to go? what do we want answered? ... before written history (that we know of) there were surely influences. ... also how did the neanderthals fight? relate to nature? The Way?

[salcanzonieri]

yeah okay, shut down any conversation, why have a forum at all?