Comparison of Chen Pao Chui and changes

[wayne hansen]

Still waiting for the 8 black belts

[Graculus]

According to Wikipedia, which we all know is never wrong, Feng didn't start training with Chen Fake until 1953

Jarek Szymanski has 1950 as the earliest date mentioned in his interview with Feng, giving a more reasonable amount of time.

Graculus
https://Ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Trick]

oops wrong thread, il try move my post to the right place

[salcanzonieri]

Still waiting for the 8 black belts

Does it really matter? Haven't done these in over 40-25 years:
- Paul Mueller (deceased) Mei Do system karate (mix of Okinawan karate, Choy Li Fut, and Japanese karate and others)
- Shaolin Long Fist
- Shaolin Staff
- Northern Chinese martial arts (various forms from N Mantis, Tong Bei, Chuao Jiao, Sun Bin, Cha Quan, and others)
- Yang Tai Chi (also learned Tong Bei TJQ, Sun, and Taiwan Chen styles)
- Mixed Internal Chinese Martial Arts (TJQ, XY, Chen and Sun Bagua)
- Modern Wushu Long Fist and weapons
- Mixed Southern and Northern Chinese Martial Arts from Whippany Kung Fu Club

Also learned from Peter Kwok Northern Chinese martial arts schools

[wayne hansen]

Most of those arts don’t have black belts connected with them
Espicially 40 years ago
So how old were you 40 years ago when you attained 40 black belts
When I started in 73 unlike today it was 6 years to blackbelt
If you want to be taken seriously about the claims you make
You need to stay away from wild statements

[Trick]

Still waiting for the 8 black belts

Does it really matter? Haven't done these in over 40-25 years:
- Paul Mueller (deceased) Mei Do system karate (mix of Okinawan karate, Choy Li Fut, and Japanese karate and others)
- Shaolin Long Fist
- Shaolin Staff
- Northern Chinese martial arts (various forms from N Mantis, Tong Bei, Chuao Jiao, Sun Bin, Cha Quan, and others)
- Yang Tai Chi (also learned Tong Bei TJQ, Sun, and Taiwan Chen styles)
- Mixed Internal Chinese Martial Arts (TJQ, XY, Chen and Sun Bagua)
- Modern Wushu Long Fist and weapons
- Mixed Southern and Northern Chinese Martial Arts from Whippany Kung Fu Club

Also learned from Peter Kwok Northern Chinese martial arts schools

when you wrote black belts i thought you meant in martial arts directly connected to Japan. If i compare my nidan in shotokan karate（jka） to the duan i have here in china, ill be honest to say those grades ive got in karate was throu blood（and broken bones）, sweat and almost tears and took me 12years of only shotokan karate focus to reach, the chinese grade was just sweat.

[Urs Krebs]

If you want to be taken seriously about the claims you make
You need to stay away from wild statements

Exactly

[salcanzonieri]

Yes, you are right, I should not have said "8 Black Belts", rather I should have said "8 styles". I stand corrected. I am sorry.
I started learning martial arts in 1975 when I was 15, and that's a long time ago. I worked hard on what I was taught.

I started doing research into where and how the internal martial arts are connected to Shaolin starting in the late 1980s and early 90s. Having learned Shaolin first, when I was taught the internal styles, it was easy to see that most of the moves I had already learned before. from there i started deep research. But, the internal strategy of TJQ, XY, Bagua was different from Shaolin, though Shaolin had the physical postures and early internal ideas, and evolution happened. Just about all the early practitioners and teachers of the big 3 internal styles had learned Shaolin first.
I didn't try to retro fit the internal styles like TJQ, I simply said "Hey, I saw these moves before" and they were done like this, in comparison, and my observation, and other peoples too, what that indeed it was the roots. And if you can understand the roots, then you can better understand the internal styles.
I have seen people learn Shaolin material and after 10 years of it, they were able to learn TJQ, etc in 3 years rather than 10, they already had the ground work / foundation.

[origami_itto]

Hey Sal I'm interested in your take on the seven forms mentioned here.

Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine.

Specifically, I'm interested in the evolution of the practices.
The claim is the 5 short forms became the old frame, and they were practiced mainly slow.
Then the cannon fist was used to develop power and was practiced mainly hard and fast.
The long fist, (not to be confused with Shaolin long fist, a different system) was then balanced hard and soft, fast and slow.

The next evolution would be the old frame became the yang main form and the long fist tradition became their own long fist/small frame routine none of which was widely transmitted.

[Bhassler]

What's supported by the Chen family is that there were originally 7 forms-- that one of them was pao chui and that another was a 108 longfist is supposition. No on knows exactly what the 7 forms were, or who combined them, or when.

The connection between Chen Changxing and so-called old frame is also up for debate. That is one claim, but another is that the term new frame and old frame as currently used comes from the "four tigers" who learned from Chen Zhaopi after the cultural revolution, and later when they learned (briefly) from Chen Zhaokui, they saw it was different and called it "new frame", when in reality it was just a difference in their own understanding of what they were seeing based on whatever of the traditional practice was available to them. The current usage of the terms bears no connection to historical uses of the same terms within Chen style taiji.

I personally don't think it matters much, but to present one or the other as de facto academic truth is disingenuous.

[salcanzonieri]

What's supported by the Chen family is that there were originally 7 forms-- that one of them was pao chui and that another was a 108 longfist is supposition. No on knows exactly what the 7 forms were, or who combined them, or when.

The connection between Chen Changxing and so-called old frame is also up for debate. That is one claim, but another is that the term new frame and old frame as currently used comes from the "four tigers" who learned from Chen Zhaopi after the cultural revolution, and later when they learned (briefly) from Chen Zhaokui, they saw it was different and called it "new frame", when in reality it was just a difference in their own understanding of what they were seeing based on whatever of the traditional practice was available to them. The current usage of the terms bears no connection to historical uses of the same terms within Chen style taiji.

I personally don't think it matters much, but to present one or the other as de facto academic truth is disingenuous.

a supposition? All the Chen family documentation that has been well preserved, even Tang Hao saw them and wrote about them, gave the names of these 7 forms.
They mention Tong Bei and Shaolin Long fist as base frame that their soft martial art was hung on.

Chen ChangXing's Large frame Yi Lu (not "old frame", it wasn't old in his time) and Chen FaKe Beijing "new frame / old frame" story from the "four tigers" have nothing to do with each other at all.
Other than its the same form. How they do it is different.

[salcanzonieri]

Hey Sal I'm interested in your take on the seven forms mentioned here.

Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine.

Specifically, I'm interested in the evolution of the practices.
The claim is the 5 short forms became the old frame, and they were practiced mainly slow.
Then the cannon fist was used to develop power and was practiced mainly hard and fast.
The long fist, (not to be confused with Shaolin long fist, a different system) was then balanced hard and soft, fast and slow.

The next evolution would be the old frame became the yang main form and the long fist tradition became their own long fist/small frame routine none of which was widely transmitted.

My take on the 7 forms is that Chen family documents are right, of course, which mention Tong Bei (derived from a mixture of Shaolin and Shaanxi martial arts "13 postures' and Shaolin TaiTzu Chang Quan as the root (and Qi Jiguang's book).
There is nothing mysterious.