Traditional arts are they lost?

[wayne hansen]

Yes pressure testing must be correct pressure testing
It is interesting to see people here trot out all the right terminology
Then see them using none of it
You are right Bao it is not about winning and loosing
But winning and loosing are part of the process

[BruceP]

Yes pressure testing must be correct pressure testing
It is interesting to see people here trot out all the right terminology
Then see them using none of it
You are right Bao it is not about winning and loosing
But winning and loosing are part of the process

Ok, but then what is correct "pressure testing"?

[Appledog]

The video made by a friend of mine, talks about the history of martial arts, and what he feels happened to the Chinese martial arts..

Do you agree?

I think it is less about agreeing and more about actually doing whatever needs to be done to preserve or promote the arts.

If we could go back 50 years, or 100 years, or more, and "preserve" what was "lost" -- what would that look like differently than what we see today?

If you can create that thing, then it is not lost. If you don't want to, that is a different thing. But, can it be done? Do you think it is possible? What do you think, really needs to be done?

[windwalker]

The video made by a friend of mine, talks about the history of martial arts, and what he feels happened to the Chinese martial arts..

Do you agree?

I think it is less about agreeing and more about actually doing whatever needs to be done to preserve or promote the arts.

If we could go back 50 years, or 100 years, or more, and "preserve" what was "lost"
testing
-- what would that look like differently than what we see today?

no one knows how it would look like, no examples of live usage from back then, no live usage by those of today claiming
what is shown is representative of what was done back then.



If the history is true,,one would expect the usage of the arts, shown in use in what ever the usage would entail, guarding caravans, personal guards, teaching, combative sportive events, ect.

Biaoju 镖局- security companies

outlines 4 levels of usage combative sport being the lowest for the society at that time.

If you can create that thing, then it is not lost. If you don't want to, that is a different thing. But, can it be done? Do you think it is possible? What do you think, really needs to be done?

The video posted expresses what some feel what could or should be done.

No one here can point to a current practitioner, using the art in a combative setting distinctly recognized as the art, in one of the combative open sporting events of today.

All attempts at rationalizing usage, done through historical accounts of the old masters, or practitioners,
many of which did compete in the combat sport events of the day.

Everyone who practices is an example to others of how their art is expressed and tested according to level
and focus...

Yang started teaching to the Royal Family and became well known. He loved to fight and welcomed any opportunity, seeking out many famous fighters and encountered some setbacks (which he faced by improving his ability by returning to the Chen family twice more) gaining a reputation of being unbeatable. (apparently without injury to his oponents or himself).

He became known as Yang Wudi (no enemy, no rival) and was quoted as saying "There are three people I cannot beat. They are made of brass, iron and wood. The rest I can beat." Many point to this as a true indicator that T'ai Chi Chuan works on people, but not objects.

[everything]

A more reasonable view would seem that he was an extraordinary fighter and just as there was only one Muhammad Ali, the following generations could become very learned and extraordinary fighters, but not to the degree Yang Luchan achieved (who in death became an even more legendary figure). The next major Yang character was Yang Cheng Fu.

similar opinion/observation I seem to make a lot. If you have LeBron James as "the greatest", noone can reasonably expect LeBron Jr. to be at the same, legendary level, even if he reaches NBA level. It just wouldn't happen. Grandchild, probably not, either. Of course basketball (and most athletic endeavors) do not need a master/apprentice linear model. It's too bad there was never a Jigoro Kano type ( expert in formal education methods to create a system ) in CIMA or CMA or lots of other MA in general. I'm not even sure anyone knows, cares, or speculates on how good Kano was at his invention. The invention itself far eclipses the individual founder. That's how it should be.

[wayne hansen]

Plenty of second and third generation rugby league players equal to their forebears
In FMA Brandon Ricketts is up to Tophers level in KI and they sat his brother is better
He reminds me of Tony Diego

[everything]

shoot, I don't follow rugby so don't know those guys. there are definitely those pros who surpass their parents who were pro or semi-pro in futbol (only sport i really follow more closely). for the usa folks, pulisic comes to mind. but none of those parents have a "name" like YLC or LeBron.

[Trick]

astonishingly there have been two ”Yang Invincible” in the history of Chinese martial stuff, and theres a considerable timelap between them. Shows the tradition cant be lost :）

[origami_itto]

astonishingly there have been two ”Yang Invincible” in the history of Chinese martial stuff, and theres a considerable timelap between them. Shows the tradition cant be lost :）

Weren't they father and son? Lu Chan and Ban Hou?

[Doc Stier]

Yang Shao-hou was Yang Lu-chan's grandson.

[origami_itto]

Yang Shao-hou was Yang Lu-chan's grandson.

Corrected that. Pretty sure Ban Hou was also known as "Wu Di"

[Trick]

Yang Shao-hou was Yang Lu-chan's grandson.

Corrected that. Pretty sure Ban Hou was also known as "Wu Di"

even more evidemce nothing is lost in time - three invincible Yangs - the first of them - Yang Ye - invincible some 1150 years ago. The tradition keep rolling on.

You still on RSF so late at new years eve !

Happy New Year to you guys

[Appledog]

astonishingly there have been two ”Yang Invincible” in the history of Chinese martial stuff, and theres a considerable timelap between them. Shows the tradition cant be lost :）

Interesting point!

If we could go back 50 years, or 100 years, or more, and "preserve" what was "lost" -- what would that look like differently than what we see today?

testing

no one knows how it would look like, no examples of live usage from back then, no live usage by those of today claiming
what is shown is representative of what was done back then.

No one? That's not really true though is it? There is certainly enough alive today to represent what was done back then.

I think part of why you and some others -- including myself -- feel that some things are lost is that we haven't seen it (yet). I've come to see enough that I doubt anything at all has been lost. It's out there, but it might be very hard to find! Maybe we just can't find it! Maybe you can find it and I can't and maybe I can find it and you can't! Perhaps we could draw up a Venn diagram of all the possibilities and work out what needs best to be done to make sure things are not lost. This isn't a game, you know, it is a science. And when things must be passed down, people should find a way to make sure that is done. Seems like the first thing to do is fix that part, and then work from there. Maybe we can't get it all in one lifetime, but if we found a way to pass it down, at least the next generation could get it! If they wanted it badly enough, if they cared.

[color=#0000FF]If the history is true,,one would expect the usage of the arts, shown in use in what ever the usage would entail, guarding caravans, personal guards, teaching, combative sportive events, ect.

Biaoju 镖局- security companies

I don't think security companies are the primary use or representation of martial arts at all. Look at security companies today. What role do they play in comparison to other types of security force? Or in comparison with an individual's security? I think the roles are much the same. Focusing on the idea of security companies doesn't seem to make sense here.

If you can create that thing, then it is not lost. If you don't want to, that is a different thing. But, can it be done? Do you think it is possible? What do you think, really needs to be done?

The video posted expresses what some feel what could or should be done.

I disagree with the content of the video. Or maybe I don't really understand it (fishing markers?) For example the idea that there is no standard. I am pretty sure there is a standard. Or maybe the standard is one of the things which was lost?

No one here can point to a current practitioner, using the art in a combative setting distinctly recognized as the art, in one of the combative open sporting events of today.

All attempts at rationalizing usage, done through historical accounts of the old masters, or practitioners,
many of which did compete in the combat sport events of the day.

I think that's a non sequitur. I don't think it is correct to create some sports body and demand that all other "arts" conform to your specific rules. This works both ways (on both sides of the fence). It is also false to take an art like yang style tai chi, which was specifically reworked to promote health and (basically) remove all martial elements and expect older participants to compete well against younger ones.

I really feel overall the main problem is that people got into things like (tai chi) for health and a bit of self defense or personal ability that would come from the health, and to dip their toe into things like combat, but being batman or getting into ringfighting is a completely different story, and it's kind of dumb to expect that the majority of people who are involved in "traditional martial arts" would engage in that kind of stuff. Let's be honest--if karate kid was real the police would be involved and Mr. Miyagi would be laughing all the way to the bank while Cobra Kai shut down because it couldn't make the payments. Second to that learning to fight in a traditional way takes time. No one just jumps into traditional japanese boatbuilding. Or any other art. There are graduated levels of training which have been established. And most people get to a point and are happy with what they have achieved. So they will never learn to fight. For them it is more about the art than it is about the fight. Some people even turned that into a justification.

That being said, if you want to be "aware of" and "preserve" the martial traditions, they are out there. There are solutions. The question is whether or not those solutions are going to work. From what I have seen they work. But it's not for everyone. For starters you have to give up your life. You're not allowed to have a life. Also get off your high horse. The problem is infinitely more plebian that finding the right teacher. proof, look at Pan Qing Fu. Now, I am sure that M. Pan had a great teacher. It just strikes me at the moment that I cannot recall who it is. Perhaps that is because what M. Pan did in his life eclipsed that of his teacher. Thus, he honored him. It should be all of our greatest honor to honor our teachers in this fashion, and say, "I will not be known for my teachers, I will not live in the shadow of a person's name or the name of an art. I will teach people who seek me out, not as a representative of an art, but as a great person."

"T'ai Chi Chuan works on people, but not objects." -- all of these old stories are just oral instruction that make teaching certain concepts easy. It's all about becoming like a child. I just say this to point out just how far out of whack we have become in the modern world. We're so far away from where we need to be even to get basic concepts like this that I think it is not traditional arts which have become lost, but all of us.

The first thing one would need to do if they wanted to "find" a lost traditional martial art is to stop dreaming about doing it and just do it.

[windwalker]

Also get off your high horse.

The problem is infinitely more plebian that finding the right teacher. proof, look at Pan Qing Fu.
The first thing one would need to do if they wanted to "find" a lost traditional martial art is to stop dreaming about doing it and just do it.

"high horse"

hardly.....


A General conversation, over some ideas brought out in a video clip,
agreeing with general points made.

Unfortunately, modern day martial arts have also lost the check and balance of challenge matches.

David Chin

"Traditional arts are they lost? "

An allegory to the idea that martial arts, are no longer used or tested as they once were.
Specifically Chinese martial arts with their long history and development, for the most part have stopped their evolution with the stories of past masters or noted practitioners serving as the example, proof of their validity.



The video clip mentioned other arts that have combative contest that help to promote the practice, insure interest
and attract those willing to make the sacrifices in life needed to arrive at the top levels. "publicly"

"publicly"

undoubtedly, there are those who have reached the levels mentioned in the past,
but choose to remain anonymous or private in their own practices.

[windwalker]

"I will not be known for my teachers, I will not live in the shadow of a person's name or the name of an art. I will teach people who seek me out, not as a representative of an art, but as a great person."

what is the greatness you feel that you have
that would make others seek you out ?


Recently back from Taiwan...

IME

If one was practicing something not recognized as what they were doing "taiji"
for the most part, they wouldn't be interested in finding out more about the practice.

They were interested in others who they felt had skill in what they practiced.

the first question most asked was, "who was your teacher, where did you learn"
followed by hands on demos of skill.
People I work with, are interested in certain type of skill...
Do not claim to have skill, only share the practice.
Often telling others to "follow the art not the person"..

"T'ai Chi Chuan works on people, but not objects." -- all of these old stories are just oral instruction that make teaching certain concepts easy.

Not an accounting of an event of someone who was very confident in their level of skill. ?
ok


It's all about becoming like a child. I just say this to point out just how far out of whack we have become in the modern world. We're so far away from where we need to be even to get basic concepts like this that I think it is not traditional arts which have become lost, but all of us.

The first thing one would need to do if they wanted to "find" a lost traditional martial art is to stop dreaming about doing it and just do it.