Three forms combination.

[origami_itto]

Taiji fajin is effortless not at all the way we often see in for example Chen family boxing forms performance,such hard fajin is focused on clashing, Taiji fajin comes from blending so to redirect an incoming clashing force into it self, obviously easier said than done, that’s why most Taiji players who want show off combat power rather choose the external hard way to practice KAPOW

Chen Xiao Wang told me that there’s a huge misunderstanding of what Fajin is. Actual Fajin comes from what I described in my post. It uses ‘Xiong Yao Zhedie’ Chest and waist spring’ (the movement of lumbar and thoracic spine like I mentioned. And ‘Zhuanhuan’ Turning Torquing (using one half of your Transverse Abdominal Muscle to turn your waist, and direct the explosive wave towards your right or left side.
He thinks that sometime in the late 1800s early 1900s that outside observers witnessed people being seemingly and almost magically lifted up and tossed out during pushhands. This is called ‘Ti Fang’ Lift Throw. In a northern Chinese dialect Fang can sound similar to Fajin. And he thinks that might be where the misunderstanding of what Fajin is.

I am pretty sure that Chen Man Ching at least knows the difference between ti fang and fa jin

For me, there is a difference between the Chen idea of fa jin and the Yang idea of fa jin.

A lot of modern Yang folks get the same ideas, really, which doesn't help. A lot of cross-pollination of modern Chen ideas into common Yang understanding, gets very confusing.

In whatever case, there is this insistence that fa jin be an explosive and obvious expression of power. In Yang style it is just a release of held energy. When the two bodies meet and apply force against each other that builds a tension of energy. The Yang stylist moves within that tension, finds a degree of freedom to release it, and releases it. It's not about generating a great deal of hard fast force within the body and expressing it externally.

To that end, yes, the specific anatomy you mentioned is involved in some expressions, but there are so many other ways to build, move, and release the energy.

Where the confusion about ti fang might come in is that they are closely related there. I know I was confused at first.

Cheng Man Ching writes that when the incoming force can't be deflected to the side, it can be neutralized by being absorbed into the dantien. When their power has expended itself and you are fully loaded, you break their root and release the loaded energy (fa jin), the whole process is ti fang (lift and release).

When we fa jin there are different qualities we can express it through, long, short/cold, shaking, etc.

[wayne hansen]

Your wish is my command
No matter what you say I won’t respond
You and the apple just praise each other
I am so sorry if I offended you
I realise the error of my ways

[Trick]

I personally don’t put fajinish expressions as a main effort in my training, however through the (correct) relaxed flow of movement of the traditional Yang style form crisp and sharp expressions emerge here and there when I get spirited. The main focus(for me) is always flowing with listening/reading/sensing both in forms and sparring alike as they are the same exercises. Finishing off moves are easy.

[windwalker]

Might be better to look at who Lü Baochun's influences were to understand his expression and practice

one of his teachers

Master Wei Shuren
Prior to meeting Master Wang Yongquan, Master Wei was a contented master of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan. A friend told him of an old master with superlative skill that he must meet. Master Wei famously said that there was nothing more for him to learn in Tai Chi Chuan since he had attained a high level of skill.

The friend persisted. Some two years later a reluctant Master Wei stood before Master Wang who was sitting down in a rattan chair. Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face. Master Wang waved Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers. Master Wang grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated on him. So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

Demo of Master Wang Youngquan.


some bagau masters show the same expression
Baguazhang master Tie Enfang



Master Wei Shuren

[D_Glenn]

Bao, in the 2 minute long clip of the Chen form that he’s doing he never does the Fajin. I think he skips over 4 or 5 places where you would traditionally do it. That’s the point.

I only brought up Chen Xiao Wang because you mentioned that Lu does Chen Taiji. Honestly I don’t care about Taijiquan at all but I like to personally meet and cross hands with as many practitioners of Internal Martial Arts as I can, so I went to a short seminar with CXW. He saw that I could Fajin and apparently CXW isn’t known for talking much but shared a ton of information with me that day, I think because I could do it. Everything he shared coincided with what Dr. Xie and Jinbao have told me about it. He even let me feel the weird Dantian Rotation (Zhuanhuan) skill that Jinbao had let me feel some 8 years previous to this encounter so that’s another similar thing that helped my understanding. In our Baguazhang we practice Fajin in every movement of every form. It’s the backbone of our system. It can still be practiced by someone who doesn’t know how to, or is not physically capable of doing the Fajin movements. Dr. Xie said it’s hard for people with decades of previous martial arts experience to be able to learn it. So he had good students who could do it, and students who couldn’t. Jinbao was chosen as his successor because he could do it.

But nobody can learn it if they don’t try. The traditional saying is that “You have to lock the student inside the school for 2 years, in order to learn it.” Without being in constant contact with my teachers it took me about 5 years to learn it. I don’t think it’s going to make it too many more generations in Taijiquan but at least it will survive in our Baguazhang.

If someone who does Taiji and wants to try and learn it, then I recommend training with and watching videos of my teacher He Jinbao, because he demonstrates it in every movement. You can also feel the power of it from him because he has superb control to give you a feel but not injure you in the process.

.

[D_Glenn]

Using XiongYaoZhedie to Fajin undergoes a lifelong journey of moving through Ming (Obvious) to An (Hidden) to Hua (Transformed, or rather Fully Integrated) Stages of skill level. You couldn’t even tell that Dr. Xie was doing the movements of his lumbar but you could feel the end result of it in his hands and feet. Being jolted by a 79 year old man was a pretty insane experience.

Dr. Xie had Jinbao film all our videos in a Ming manner and Jinbao told me that it’s hard to undo refinement. You have to try and remember that phase in your past and then try and somehow replicate it.

.

[D_Glenn]

In Yang style it is just a release of held energy. When the two bodies meet and apply force against each other that builds a tension of energy. The Yang stylist moves within that tension, finds a degree of freedom to release it, and releases it. It's not about generating a great deal of hard fast force within the body and expressing it externally.

That same exact thing happens in Chen style too. But it’s known as TiFang. I met another Chen family guy who was all about what we call the ‘Hua Dao’ (Containing the Power practice). He specialized in teaching pushhands and would let his students know when that moment TiFang moment happened, but try not to toss them, and continue on, but most times it was inevitable and they would fly out and fall to the ground.

CXW said that when you have TiFang(ed) someone and want injure them then you would add on top of that a Fajin. In Chen and Yin Baguazhang there’s a type of Fajin that is called Zhen Dong Li (shocking force). It’s soft, meaning that your limbs are relaxed. And it’s short, like a pulse. This can result in the wave being able to enter inside the opponent and expand. Or kind like imploding within the confines of their body. It does this by stopping a strike at the surface. Almost like pulling the strike back. We learn all our movements using normal types of Forces, like Chopping, where you try to strike all the way through them and they move with the strike. And then we also learn all our movements using Zhen Dong Li. Dr. Xie said that when you get old like him that you have to use it because any confrontation is life or death when you can suffer old age injuries from something mundane like slipping on a patch of ice.

.

[D_Glenn]

As I mentioned, Fajin is the backbone of our Baguazhang. And as CXW said that you should learn it in every movement of the 1st form, I understood that it’s the backbone of that as well. Why is this? There’s another saying “Your own body becomes your teacher.” If you can properly fajin and get that wave of flesh moving upward from your abdomen, then it’s however you have to subsequently move your limbs in order to allow that wave to continue moving out into your strike that makes a movement right or wrong. You can feel if it doesn’t make it. You get immediate correction from your own body, and change something to try and get it out and be correct.

We use “The Old Three Palms” to start practicing it in. They’re 3 strikes that move from your center using a centripetal force to aid the wave in moving out to your hand. Once you can do it in a few strikes it’s easier to learn it in other strikes. When people are just doing ordinary movements and trying to mimic and replicate the positions that their teacher ends up in, then it’s inevitably always going to be wrong because no 2 people have the same body proportions. One Cun is measured using the patient’s own body to determine acupuncture point locations. It’s not one inch on a ruler. It’s approximately an inch. The same goes for Internal Martial Arts. “Off by an inch, miss by a mile.” If you’re trying to imitate the external choreography or positioning of a move then you will always be struggling and reliant upon watching your teacher. If you can generate a Fajin from your core then you only have to see your teacher do something one time, and go learn it on your own. This aspect of a proper fajin is the primary reason that someone should learn to do it. If someone can properly generate it and get the wave to reach the tips of their extremities, in perfect synchronicity and timing with the movement, then their Taijiquan or Bagua form is truly correct. No matter what it looks like from the outside.

If you watch high speed camera footage of boxers or people being slapped, etc. (800 fps or higher) you can see how these waves of flesh are moving just like waves on an ocean. This is what you can feel moving across your body. And this is what makes it really difficult to learn because it’s happening in fractions of seconds. It takes a lot of introspection to figure out where exactly that the wave is being stifled. But it’s rewarding when you feel it reach the hand. You can also strike out into the air harder and faster because all your connective tissue’s are moving in the same direction. Instead of being stretched and you instinctively hold back so that they aren’t injured. Doing a fajin to show off is not even anything to strive for, unless you’re trying to demonstrate it for teaching purposes. The real reason is for your own benefit in learning an Internal Martial Art for the rest of your life. Long after your teacher has died, since you have the most important tool that you need to learn on your own.

[wayne hansen]

What year was this encounter with CXW

[D_Glenn]

2009

[wayne hansen]

Thanks
I first trained with him in 88
Just trying to put things in context