the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

This is a good exercise to give beginners for their first few months of practice. It is easy to do and can encourage good habits in the morning.

It is a good Taiji exercise
But, there are several fundamental alignment problems
with the way she performs hold the ball.

What style of Taiji did you learn
this exercise for?

It's a good exercise for anyone, really, when done properly. Probably least useful for a beginner, they aren't doing anything but waving their arms around.

Why so stressed? At that pace, do you actually have time to feel what you are doing?

Is there anything of value involved, as trying to feel the alignment (zhong ding), working with the gravity (and not against it) or internal stretching?

Trip wrote:It is a good Taiji exercise
But, there are several fundamental alignment problems
with the way she performs hold the ball.

What style of Taiji did you learn
this exercise for?

I made it up, but it's based on some qigong and short sifu sets, which are themselves based on 24 simplified Yang style.

origami_itto wrote:It's a good exercise for anyone, really, when done properly. Probably least useful for a beginner, they aren't doing anything but waving their arms around.

It's part of a progression. I just like to have a short drill for any part of the form so we can drill and review any part of the set. In terms of beginner exercises, since it represents a part of the opening sequence I think it's perfect for a beginner. I often find that students don't really remember a move unless they drill it repeatedly. YMMV, some people get things right away, some need more drills.

Bao wrote:Why so stressed? At that pace, do you actually have time to feel what you are doing?

Is there anything of value involved, as trying to feel the alignment (zhong ding), working with the gravity (and not against it) or internal stretching?

I don't understand. Who is stressed? You mean the beginner in the video? She doesn't look stressed to me.

Later on when we got the whole form down and moved to using a tape (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWlMjJq4s-U) the speed was set at a reasonably slow pace to match the group.

Appledog wrote:I don't understand. Who is stressed? You mean the beginner in the video? She doesn't look stressed to me.

She does it too fast, she has no time to feel what she is doing.

But I got it, you made it up and it's just "qigong" with no kind of purpose at all, except for actually doing the exercise. Then I have no idea why you call it "Tai Chi exercise," but ok, good luck.

Appledog wrote:

origami_itto wrote:It's a good exercise for anyone, really, when done properly. Probably least useful for a beginner, they aren't doing anything but waving their arms around.

It's part of a progression. I just like to have a short drill for any part of the form so we can drill and review any part of the set. In terms of beginner exercises, since it represents a part of the opening sequence I think it's perfect for a beginner. I often find that students don't really remember a move unless they drill it repeatedly. YMMV, some people get things right away, some need more drills.

How does this change to become more useful?

I am old school, still like the old way - low horse stance for don't know how long.

idk about how low, but agree hold for a long time. move very slowly. it seems counterintuitive. what itto said about "beginner exercise" not being too useful for beginners who are just learning to wave arms. "secrets" are given out on day one, but nobody can comprehend them.

idk about how low,

It depends on how open the ankle joint, knee joint, hip joint. lower back .... are.

They should know from day 1 the skills and abilities are not something that can be transferred from someone like what they have seen in the movies. It comes from their own hard work and long term devotion.

Bao wrote:

Appledog wrote:I don't understand. Who is stressed? You mean the beginner in the video? She doesn't look stressed to me.

She does it too fast, she has no time to feel what she is doing.

Yeah, that's what I said. Not really the point of the video though.

Bao wrote:But I got it, you made it up and it's just "qigong" with no kind of purpose at all, except for actually doing the exercise. Then I have no idea why you call it "Tai Chi exercise," but ok, good luck.

Did you read the video description?

suckinlhbf wrote:I am old school, still like the old way - low horse stance for don't know how long.

Yes, it is the biggest 'thing', I would say, I have definitely noticed it in myself and others. I've often asked my teacher about it. They said we use a different training method, which is a more gentle and long term way. They told me, there are different places you can start from, as long as you start from somewhere. Frankly I think we start from a place most people would consider strange considering the art but it seems to work in the end! I think Hai Yang commented on this during a lecture over direct and gentle training methods.

Chen Zhonghua commented on this once. He said some people work on things like flow first, but he prefers to work on flow last. I think the Wu school teaches something similar with a square form first. Similar idea. I used to doubt this method but have come to appreciate it for teaching.

direct and gentle

The "gentle" for a 18 years old boy is not quite the same for a 81 years old senior. The boy can do a lot more in his own "direct and gentle" way. We won't believe what the young people can do when they are being pushed to the edge. They get tons of potential and can do a lot with their flexibilities and physical abilities. It is the quality of movements that matters.

Appledog wrote:

This is a good exercise to give beginners for their first few months of practice. It is easy to do and can encourage good habits in the morning.

There are many, many, many things that one can do with one’s time. I’m of the opinion, that if one wants to accomplish something specific, one ought to choose activities that lead one towards achieving those specific goals. In the case of physical activities, one ought to choose activities that lead to specific desired skills and abilities. If one is going to, for example, perform a motion repeatedly, performing that motion should lead to the desired skills and abilities. If not, one is simply repeating motions for the sake of repeating motions. Ideally, the exercise should be more effective/more efficient at achieving those skills and abilities than other possible exercises. Otherwise, one ought to do that more effective exercise instead of this one.

That said, towards what specific goals does the exercise that you “created” lead? The description that accompanies the video states, “This is a beginners exercise which teaches three fundamental concepts of Tai Chi: Transfer the weight, Balance, and Relaxation.” For any able-bodied person, how does this teach/reinforce transfer of weight better than, say, just walking? What is “special” about THIS exercise that makes it better suited to learning about the transfer of weight? Ditto for balance. What about this exercise explicitly teaches or reinforces relaxation?

Then, assuming that this is an efficient exercise for the intended goals, there is the question of HOW it should be performed to better one on one’s way towards those goals. Does it matter how the exercise is performed or is it just that the choreography is so special that simply performing the choreography will lead to the desired/stated skills and abilities?

origami_itto wrote:

Appledog wrote:

origami_itto wrote:It's a good exercise for anyone, really, when done properly. Probably least useful for a beginner, they aren't doing anything but waving their arms around.

It's part of a progression. I just like to have a short drill for any part of the form so we can drill and review any part of the set. In terms of beginner exercises, since it represents a part of the opening sequence I think it's perfect for a beginner. I often find that students don't really remember a move unless they drill it repeatedly. YMMV, some people get things right away, some need more drills.

How does this change to become more useful?

Over time stringency is added to each part of the frame, pointers and feedback are given (i.e. corrections). These all usually revolve around the physical execution of the basic exercise and are given in the form of physical rules, some of which require the use of chopsticks.

everything wrote:idk about how low, but agree hold for a long time. move very slowly. it seems counterintuitive. what itto said about "beginner exercise" not being too useful for beginners who are just learning to wave arms. "secrets" are given out on day one, but nobody can comprehend them.

But, @everything, there are no secrets ;-)

suckinlhbf wrote:

direct and gentle

The "gentle" for a 18 years old boy is not quite the same for a 81 years old senior. The boy can do a lot more in his own "direct and gentle" way. We won't believe what the young people can do when they are being pushed to the edge. They get tons of potential and can do a lot with their flexibilities and physical abilities. It is the quality of movements that matters.

Well, as I said, I agree with you, but I don't understand what you are talking about. The person in the video is a 12-year-old girl. I think you're talking about something else, which I also agree with, and different stringencies are used there. I also hired a personal trainer to help him, so I think this might be about something else! No worries, it's good advice!

charles wrote:

Appledog wrote:

This is a good exercise to give beginners for their first few months of practice. It is easy to do and can encourage good habits in the morning.

There are many, many, many things that one can do with one’s time. I’m of the opinion, that if one wants to accomplish something specific, one ought to choose activities that lead one towards achieving those specific goals. In the case of physical activities, one ought to choose activities that lead to specific desired skills and abilities. If one is going to, for example, perform a motion repeatedly, performing that motion should lead to the desired skills and abilities. If not, one is simply repeating motions for the sake of repeating motions. Ideally, the exercise should be more effective/more efficient at achieving those skills and abilities than other possible exercises. Otherwise, one ought to do that more effective exercise instead of this one.

Is that always true? I seem to recall an old story about Master Maarten SFS, the founder of Shanzhaiquan. When he visited his teacher for the first time and asked to become a student, his teacher asked him the usual questions and have him the usual tests, but one question stood out. Do you want to be a teacher or a fighter? He asked what the difference was. His teacher said, a fighter only needs to know a few effective things to become accomplished, but a teacher is responsible for learning everything, so they cannot reach as high a level as the fighter. With humility, he said that he was willing to pass down the art, and so his teacher taught him everything. In our case, I want to teach my children patience and humility and therefore I am following Maarten's example of training them to be teachers, and not fighters. I think the world needs more teachers.

charles wrote:That said, towards what specific goals does the exercise that you “created” lead? The description that accompanies the video states, “This is a beginners exercise which teaches three fundamental concepts of Tai Chi: Transfer the weight, Balance, and Relaxation.” For any able-bodied person, how does this teach/reinforce transfer of weight better than, say, just walking? What is “special” about THIS exercise that makes it better suited to learning about the transfer of weight? Ditto for balance. What about this exercise explicitly teaches or reinforces relaxation?

This exercise or that exercise? I know you have a special interest in this because I have your excellent DVD, and I was able to learn some interesting things from it. However, please keep in mind that this exercise is a "white belt" exercise being performed by a 12-year-old girl. Even if I were to pick some other exercise, it would not really matter and it would be performed in an equally poor manner. So, if demonstrating the quality of a motion was not the goal of the video, what was? As you know, each exercise has certain requirements. These can be a checklist of items such as, did you hold your left hand over the right hand at the same time as your weight was on your left foot? Is your T-Step in the right area? Where are you looking? Are you leaning forward? A whole list of requirements. The final requirement is, "say cheese!" And from there is a whole other world of possibilities. Count your breaths out, how many breaths? Even and slow or in slow out fast? In through the nose or mouth, out through the mouth or nose? Where is your tongue? Small moves, Ellie.

When she was five we went out to the park as a family and we started to practice Tai Chi. I asked her to come stand with me and her brother and I said ok lets try it! Raise your arms.... But she did not raise her arms. So we just did raise arms. But she wouldn't raise her arms. In fact, she started crying. Later on, I was able to figure out the reason she was crying was because she didn't know how to do what she saw me doing. I said it was ok, so I tied some balloons to her wrists and wheee, up go the hands! The funny thing was, once she stopped trying to be perfect, she was able to do the exercise.

There is also a huge point to be made about getting up every day and doing dongyidong for 2 hours. I hope you will agree with me the least benefit is that this is actually a position in the 24 form so it is better than just randomly walking around. Even if that benefit is rather natty.

I don't understand what you are talking about

Apology for not making it clear. So now be honest and direct, please excuse me if it makes you upset.

I came around the video clips of the two kids doing Xingyi. I am so impressed that their movements are so proper, clear, relax, and coordinate. You should have spent tons of time teaching and they have practised a lot. It rarely happens with kids nowaday. They would rather use them on gaming. From their moves, I have seen things that I may have catched it wrong.
Their movements are contained in their body other than release to outside. Opening all joints for power release is the basic of martial arts no matter it is for a teacher or a fighter. 伸根拔骨 training could make them stronger, bigger, and taller. It can also help to bring out their yi without them knowing. Releasing is the cores of martial arts so we feel outside and aware of inside. Qigong, on the other hand, is feel inside and aware of outside.
They move too relax. We need both tightness and softness in the movements, not only relax. Xingyi requires the whole body to move like a big elastic band. They are kids and to develop muscles is important to them. Whole body movement need everything, including muscles.
Just what I see from my very limited knowledge.