judo footwork basics

[everything]

another thread was talking about "5 steps".

for comparison here's some judo fundamentals (includes other stuff but just pointing to footwork sections). taijiquan fixed step ph wouldn't have this stuff (by definition/constraint/convention). bagua may have "more" but isn't so easily accessible to go around the corner and do / scalable to the Olympic level.

stepping: in the body mechanics section.
footwork (shuffling): in the Ioniash section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdpVBJPqG8

[BruceP]

The positional control with judo and tjq is different, so it isn't a fair comparison.

Insofar as stepping;

The inflection point is outside of the judoka until it isn't because there's a tactical approach to interception/arrival at the inflection point in affecting throwing or other type of control of the opp/uki.

The inflection point is (supposed to be) always in the center of the body/mind of the tjq practitioner so there's no tactical approach, per se, to affecting the physical or positional state of the other person.

Footwork proper is wholly dependent on the physicality/morphology/body-type and technical level of the individual regardless of whatever art/style one is testing. The operative word being, testing, or otherwise applying under pressure. The training of footwork is predicated on the principles of the art and how it pertains to maintaining those principles at whatever level of intensity the testing is being done.

All assuming of course that we're comparing the two arts as they'd be applied in their respective interactive formats whether that's sport, training or 'fighting'.

I'm open to anyone's counterpoints on all that jib-jab

come at me, bros

[everything]

definitely has many built-in assumptions. you are 1v1 on a soft mat, wearing heavy gis, focused on sport throws/takedowns, etc. I have vague memories of learning where your feet go in trying to enter into position for some specific throw, but not learning any "general steps" or step exercises.

tai chi? in the context of fixed step ph, there isn't the "stepping" of the form or in the writings or in the choreographed sanshou since presumably you want to focus on this already connected state. but if people did more "free step ph", maybe the talk about "5 steps" could be more interesting.

[wayne hansen]

The stuff he is talking about is in the walking 4 hands and ta Lu
It is in the San shou sets but not realised in the two man sets as your partner neutralises each step before you realise it’s conclusion
I think of the 2 man san shou as the jockeying for position form
Thé solo san shou sets realise the full stepping
When broken down into 3 steps or shorter the applications and their variations are there to practice
I liked box stepping he taught it is very similar to FMA stepping work

[yeniseri]

I have found in "my simple way", contrary to the CMA multitude, that judo and BJJ complements TJQ per the "shuai" and "na" elements
and it gives the individual a 'pressure testing" realization that even in the clench postures, with a lack of physical conditioning,
one will get tired quickly and fold enough to faint or even hurt oneself trying to escape the clench at even the basic level.

Tim Cartmell has shown that it can be done provided one has been trained appropriately to see how other arts have a capacity to
liven taijiquan practice and training

[GrahamB]

There's no need for quantum physics. Just angles and position:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3THs7yPyz4/

[origami_itto]

There's no need for quantum physics. Just angles and position:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3THs7yPyz4/

Somebody who is really good can lift you right out of your strong line. No need for angle and position like that.

[GrahamB]

There's no need for quantum physics. Just angles and position:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3THs7yPyz4/

Somebody who is really good can lift you right out of your strong line. No need for angle and position like that.

If you have a video of somebody defying gravity, I'd love to see it.

[origami_itto]

There's no need for quantum physics. Just angles and position:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C3THs7yPyz4/

Somebody who is really good can lift you right out of your strong line. No need for angle and position like that.

If you have a video of somebody defying gravity, I'd love to see it.

Huh?

What I'm talking about is more like, you are strong and braced in a direction, they contact you in that direction, but the force is directed so that you are lifted.

You want to attack the weakest point of their attack, aim for the center of it.

[Doc Stier]

There's no need for quantum physics. Just angles and position:

What I'm talking about is more like, you are strong and braced in a direction, they contact you in that direction, but the force is directed so that you are lifted.

Anyone who has developed real expertise in genuine IMA methods will NOT brace or resist in any direction, imo. Instead, they will attach, adhere, join and follow, transferring incoming energy and power to the ground through their structure, while simultaneously neutralizing and countering from a solid root with uncompromised balance and stability. ymmv.

[origami_itto]

What I'm talking about is more like, you are strong and braced in a direction, they contact you in that direction, but the force is directed so that you are lifted.

Anyone who has developed real expertise in genuine IMA methods will NOT brace or resist in any direction, imo. Instead, they will attach, adhere, join and follow, transferring incoming energy and power to the ground through their structure, while simultaneously neutralizing and countering from a solid root with uncompromised balance and stability. ymmv.

I agree 108%, but it's a matter of degree, ain't it? A matter of relative "sung".

Like I might feel fine and dandy and loose against one guy, but to the next I'm carved from a block of styrofoam.

In this case, if I'm the one losing, then the other guy isn't a brick wall, but a trampoline that I'm running into.

[GrahamB]

You're drifting off into vagueness again. What I mean is show me how angles and leverage don't matter against somebody who is 'good'. I think, in the real world, those things do matter.

[Doc Stier]

You're drifting off into vagueness again. What I mean is show me how angles and leverage don't matter against somebody who is 'good'. I think, in the real world, those things do matter.

Of course it matters. The primary purpose of developing fast, agile footwork is to move offline of incoming attacks in order to effectively defend and counterattack from a lateral angle. Those who are consistently able to do so typically either win the fight or fight to a draw. Those who can't do so, will generally find themselves contesting speed and/or power on the initial line of attack and will usually be defeated by anyone who is stronger or faster than they are.

[origami_itto]

You're drifting off into vagueness again. What I mean is show me how angles and leverage don't matter against somebody who is 'good'. I think, in the real world, those things do matter.

It's difficult to really describe or consider without ridiculous seeming hypotheticals yet it's plain to observe.

So lets say you throw a punch at something, you hit it, transfer some energy, maybe damage it maybe move it, whatever. Or a push, whatever.

When you make contact with a thing, if it doesn't stay put, then the amount of energy you effectively transfer to it is affected. If it moves toward you maybe there's more energy in the exchange. If it moves away from you, it's taking less. Go back to my Zhong Ding article for a couple thousand on that idea.

So in some instances in that punch or push, there's going to be an absolute limit of power, the old power stage of the attack. The attacker's body is going to be stiff because they are trying to apply their strength, and it's going to reach a maximum size or extension, their "reach".

At that point, when they are maximally extended and stiff, you may be optimally loaded to release energy into that structure. They are at maximum Yang, where Yin waits.

Think maybe like their fist and body is the arrow your point of contact is the string, and the rest of your body is the bow that stores the jin. Part of your body pulls the string to store the potential energy in the rest.

Or maybe they withdraw and give you more to work with. Maybe you neutralize with a micro rollback at the point of contact and get to that maximum a lot sooner.

There's a story about an external boxer that tried to surprise Yang Lu Chan and jumped at him with a "Black Tiger Steals the Heart", the report is Yang depressed his chest and expanded it back, like a ball deforming and re-rounding, he landed like a million miles away with his hand still extended in the punch position.

And I DO this, I'm just not that great at it, getting better all the time. Their tension and strength is the bridge, trying to move around it just robs me of the connection.

[Doc Stier]

You base your comments and opinions on a lot of assumptions regarding how you expect others to use their bodies. There's simply no way to know what any opponent will do or how they will do it. These are unknown 'x factors' which nobody can predict with any certainty.

I don't use my body in the way you described, and I know that I'm not the only one who wouldn't react and respond in that way. Think less and feel more, by getting out of your head and into your body.

Sometimes, things are only truly revealed to us when we abandon our previous perspective on it all.