Oh boy some more push hands vids

[Subitai]

UPDATED 3/27/24
Single hand push hands tips evolve into the full rotation. Then I show some other tips to be aware of.

BTW, I NEVER ASK ANYONE to Like and Subscribe. I friggin hate when other people say that in videos. So you'll notice that I NEVER DO that.

Anyway, tonight I published 2 more Tai chi vids about Push Hands:

Part 1
https://youtu.be/OQ3MhJUP18U?si=FWymH7qHEI3PiYfu

Part 2
https://youtu.be/ksULysLSxfU?si=J_FJvZf_sigDWp7b

Part 3
https://youtu.be/dG9GLlyZ8vM

Not Tai Chi so much but another one...
https://youtu.be/q0MkNs028V0?si=SeadpN8ItraqRkBB

[origami_itto]

Fantastic stuff sir, thank you very much for sharing your work!

I did like and subscribe.

The way out of danger is through it, I was looking at the weakness in the center of the attack, but you're saying here it's more akin to following and amplifying their intention?

[Giles]

Nice. Up to 5:35 of the first video, this is very similar to what I train and teach in tuishou as well. Receiving a push with the back of the hand and soft unbent wrist, palm remaining towards you, and letting the partner/opponent come until he is extended, until his attacking energy is fully dissipated. Many practitioners want to ‘get rid’ of the attacking hand earlier, meaning that they start rotating their own hand/wrist sooner, maybe also bending the wrist, and either overtly or more subtly start to push the attacking hand off to the side. If the other person also has listening energy, they can immediately feel this and use it against you.

It’s also good to train this way because it transfers much better to dealing with a faster attack, for instance a punch. Most punches (e.g. a straight, a cross, some jabs) with intent will automatically be more committed and receiving the attack in the way you show really will, in many cases, draw out the attacker, giving you an advantage. And even if the attacker’s punch is not over-committed, the approach you show will let you stick and follow the energy and direction(s) of the punch much better and surf it back to the source. In other words, as the fist starts to withdraw back you can more easily follow it because you are still in the original circle/loop you created, it’s still one movement, not a ‘one, two’. Hugely more difficult for the attacker to sense and to counter because it’s still his own energy coming back to him, with very little of yours added at this point. And so with a step forward you can ride the attacking punch back into the opponent without explicitly blocking, parrying or changing its direction. Still off the attacker’s radar, so to speak. This can turn into your own punch, or you are already well into and under the opponent’s center so you can use the return impulse for an immediate takedown. As soon as you push the punch aside – corresponding to a push-hands defence where you rotate your own hand/wrist too soon – then the attacker reads you much better and will instinctively counter your counter.

[BruceP]

Matt is a natural. Really like his structure when he's not playing the role. It shows much better during the interactions in the Hung Gar video, though.

Tell him to use his knees to keep his head suspended when he's pushing hands.

[Bao]

I've always loved Hung Gar, maybe if I met it earlier I would have tried to learn more. I taught Tai Chi to a rather large Hung gar organization. I was surprised how fast they adapted to Tai Chi, how easy they followed my instructions, especially those who had studied a couple or more years. I think that despite Hung Gar can look very hard, the practitioners learn to control tension in a way they also know how to relax.

On the Tai Chi part, I thought the videos were quite good. However, I am not a fan of push hands drills. IMHO, as soon as you've got hang of the most basic principles you should go over to free push hands, non competitive, semi-cooperative, to really train Tai Chi principles.

Push Hands drills are like having an elaborate cate in front of you, but all you keep it eating is the cake base only while putting the rest to the side. It's just stupid, why wouldn't you want to eat the whole cake? Push hands drills are just too one-dimensional. You only study the most basic stuff, a few basic of the principles. So you shouldn't treat it as it could represent the whole cake.

[Giles]

I generally prefer free push hands as the main practice mode, too. But if someone posts videos of some fixed push hands drills, it doesn't have to mean they don't also practice free push hands. Or moving step. Or sparring etc. We often tend to assume that a small window on someone's practice represents all they do.
Like I posted last month: You say "I like strawberries" and the next thing you hear is "You need to eat a much wider range of fruit, and also nuts. Bingeing on strawberries every day is not a good idea!"

But more seriously, I find that 'simple' fixed push hands patterns, done properly and intensively, can often reveal incorrect aspects of one's own practice and feed back into free play. Even for people who have trained for many years. All training modes have their place and can support each other.

[wayne hansen]

Sub your Hung Gar understanding far outweighs your tai chi
Bao the set exercises are of great value if taught correctly and have equal place to free pushing

[Bao]

the set exercises are of great value if taught correctly

How often have you seen a video where they are taught or practiced correctly?

I agree that they can be of good value. How the vast majority do them they have very little value. Again, IMO.

[Bao]

I find that 'simple' fixed push hands patterns, done properly and intensively, can often reveal incorrect aspects of one's own practice .

I understand your view. However, that incorrectness or correctness is still only shown in isolation. That something is correct in a PH drill, only becomes valuable if it's correct in a larger context. Again, the drills are too limited and one-dimensional.

[Giles]

I understand your view. However, that incorrectness or correctness is still only shown in isolation. That something is correct in a PH drill, only becomes valuable if it's correct in a larger context. Again, the drills are too limited and one-dimensional.

I understand your view too. Ultimately every exercise/drill/training mode should not be seen in isolation but in its larger context. Push hands -- from single-hand, fixed-step, fixed-pattern drills through to free moving step maybe including sweeps and throws and locks and strikes -- is almost a universe in itself. But in turn, all of this push hands really only makes sense and will be 'correct' if it can also be used to train various skills that you need when someone is genuinely attacking you. Everything in push hands that's practiced slowly and softly and 'digestibly' should also function just as well, or even better, when someone is using full speed and force on you. You should essentially be doing the same thing then, not suddenly changing the mechanics or muscle tone. Of course, then you need to train other things too, but the push hands elements should 'click into' the more complete skill set. So even the 'simple circle' in Subitai's first video - done correctly! - can be the seed for much more. It's what in the Hung Gar video he calls a 'mother skill'.

[origami_itto]

Drillers are killers.

[Subitai]

Well i'm about to update the OP to add a THIRD Tai Chi PH topic video. Part 3. If you guys notice, I never post that often and when I do it's usually about something that I feel I have a strong background in and can really contribute.

About patterns and Push hands and such. I don't limit to just any one thing..does anyone really? Everything contributes to the over all skill of a person. Good kung fu is just that... good kung fu. Kung fu is hard work and it's all the same to me.

I defy Waynes notion that I know HG better than I know Tai Chi. This implies a rift in my internal understanding. I can throw the question back a him. Has he studied HG as much as me? I have over 30 yrs and almost the same in Tai chi. People think they know HG by what they see... but if they have not reached the highest levels how can they know it's internal skills. Especially since my sifu was smaller in stature, his HG was very Yin or Yau. Most people look at the Iron wire set and see HARD..nothing could be further from the truth. In Gong and Yau, hard and soft are the basics in which it sits.

Also, despite my looks, as soon as you touch hands with me...I guarantee it'll be the same as always. You'll say: "Dang I didn't expect you to be so soft" But when I issue jing...my chi is past my extremities.
* Just ask Origami_itto...I touched hands with him. Ask him about my understanding of Tai Chi.
Don't think for a moment that these videos incapsulate what I know about Tai Chi, Xing Yi and Bagua as the 3 families of Sun. It's an interesting journey...but my intention here is to make it easy for most to understand the basics.

[wayne hansen]

I have never studied Hung Gar
One of my teachers would be in his 70 th year of HG
So I am quite familiar with it
Let me put it more directly then your tai chi is worsened by your HG
To use Ito as an example is just silly you should know by his level he should not stand for one second in front of someone with any skill at all
I understand the internal training in Tin Sid Kune having explained to me in great depth
HG is defiantly high level in its Noi Gung
When you talk about grabbing and releasing grip this shows how little you know of tai chi
Things you do in a tai chi clip that are HG show you don’t have tai chi skills to use at that point
I have no worries about you blending the two but if you do call it something else it is no longer tai chi

[origami_itto]

* Just ask Origami_itto...I touched hands with him. Ask him about my understanding of Tai Chi.

I screwed up the video but can definitely vouch for legit soft skill (whatever label you want to put on it). Couldn't do a thing to this guy and usually I can at least push myself away. He didn't even give me the chance to mess up. Just kept saying "you're doing everything right but it isn't working...how do I do that?" or something like that.

I mean... not that it would mean anything to wayne, I suck.

However, people that I know that I know Wayne knows of that have never heard of Wayne (and the "old timers" they associate with) have overwhelmingly positive things to say about Onassis's skill and reputation.

If we want to quibble about "well then it isn't Tai Chi" okay, sure, define Tai Chi?

The best you can hope for is a description of a particular pedagogy that has, historically, manifested in a variety of expressions according to the practitioner's heart and motivation. This is a matter of record, not argument.

Does Onassis know the pedagogy of Tai Chi Chuan? Without a doubt, yes, and he has clearly practiced it extensively. Sun and Yang styles.

Does Onassis also know the pedagogy of Hung Gar? To quote Nick Lachey, "Obviously."

Does knowledge and practice of Hung Gar negate the gains from Tai Chi Chuan? Doesn't seem to be hurting too much in my mediocre opinion.

Wayne, please... show us some work. Do you have a P.O. Box? I can ship a camera. I want to see this True Skill{tm}!

[wayne hansen]

Might be an idea to post the film of the two of you pushing
It seems to have evaporated
I’d sent you the PO Box but u know I would just keep the camera and post nothing