Making internal arts practical

[GrahamB]

I like anybody's efforts to make Internal Chinese martial arts more practical

(There's a great opportunity for the "they are already practical you just don't understand them!" mystical crowd - Wayne, I'm looking at you - to jump in here...)

Yes, I think they are already practical, but there are certain practical realities of fighting that are often not addressed in IMA. We're not talking about rocket science, just simple things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EItSB4XwMU



Good effort by this guy.

Some things he says I don't agree with, but on the whole I like the gist of what he's saying.

What's interesting to me is that near the end he's ending up with something that is very like Xing Yi's Pao Quan, but with the arm held nearer the head.

Around 4.40- he's talking about keeping the arms near the head without that gap that people can throw punches through.

Usually you see Pao Quan done like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAIBgAUyJQ4



Notice that big air gap between the defensive hand and the head. I was always taught to remove that gap so it should feel like you're squeezing through a tight space - I asked my teacher why he said both ways are fine, but it was the most practical way to do it.

I don't think either way is better, but I think it depends on the range you're going for - closer range you need less gap - at a longer range the gap might be necessary.

So, in a case of Pao Quan - if you are working on the outside of their attacking arm, then a gap makes sense, but if you are attacking inside their attack then no gap makes sense. Our particular style of Xing Yi seeks to get on the inside a lot - attack within their attack, so you're hitting them at the moment they think they're hitting you.

Does that... make sense?

[wayne hansen]

First guy is just doing boxing
His opponents punches don’t reach him so why would you bother to parry them
It’s just a wasted move just hit back
The second guy I don’t like either his footwork or the structure of his arms
As for pao we have 3 different versions in our 3 linking forms
If you knew anyone who new me the last word they would is mystical

[Trick]

The most basic and advanced teaching from the correctly practiced internal arts is developing reading/sensing forces directed toward you both upon touch and from distance,
It’s not about holding a specific external guard with one’s arms and similar technicalities, if one does such things then oneself becomes readable

[origami_itto]

I really like Niko's push hands, but I did start to become skeptical when he said it was just a sensitivity exercise and needed other stuff to compensate.

[everything]

so he's saying "make this move more like 'high guard' "? doesn't sound too radical or mind-blowing or "anti woo woo"

[windwalker]

I like anybody's efforts to make Internal Chinese martial arts more practical

(There's a great opportunity for the "they are already practical you just don't understand them!" mystical crowd - Wayne, I'm looking at you - to jump in here...)

Yes, I think they are already practical, but there are certain practical realities of fighting that are often not addressed in IMA. We're not talking about rocket science, just simple things.



So, in a case of Pao Quan - if you are working on the outside of their attacking arm, then a gap makes sense, but if you are attacking inside their attack then no gap makes sense. Our particular style of Xing Yi seeks to get on the inside a lot - attack within their attack, so you're hitting them at the moment they think they're hitting you.

Does that... make sense?

yes,

[windwalker]

The most basic and advanced teaching from the correctly practiced internal arts is developing reading/sensing forces directed toward you both upon touch and from distance,
It’s not about holding a specific external guard with one’s arms and similar technicalities, if one does such things then oneself becomes readable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mf2ua6PGdk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU

[everything]

Great demos

If you like NBA, makes me think of Jokic.

Seems super relaxed and casual.

People call him “unathletic” but nobody disputes his technicality. MVP for a reason(s)

[Bhassler]

It's a good topic. I think answers will vary depending on an individual's specific goals.

Karate is different than IMA, but Iain Abernethy's approach is a nice addition to our cognitive toolboxes in terms of evaluating our own goals and practices.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I36exR ... katabunkai


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvtsYnT ... katabunkai

[GrahamB]

I can't understand a word that guy is saying. All I can hear are bagpipes?

[origami_itto]

It's a good topic. I think answers will vary depending on an individual's specific goals.

Karate is different than IMA, but Iain Abernethy's approach is a nice addition to our cognitive toolboxes in terms of evaluating our own goals and practices.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I36exR ... katabunkai


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvtsYnT ... katabunkai

I like what he's saying but I'll add that what's realistic is both Nonconsensual and usually ASYMMETRICAL violence.

Generally you can escape 95% (random number, how can you prove a negative?) of potential violent conflicts either by de-escalating or evacuating.

What's that number reach when you're an average sized man who carries themselves like a martial artist?

The ones that are generally unavoidable aren't BJJ tough guy gets jumped near as often as women gets assaulted in her home by a home invasion or romantic partner or family member. Random criminal or fratboy picks someone vulnerable looking.

Kata, sparring, whatever, it goes out the window with 50 lbs of muscle difference between you. I don't care how good you are. (another random number)

Situational awareness and comfort with tactically useful objects and the ability to spot substitutes in the wild. Emotional regulation.

It's all well and good to move well but like Qi Jiguang said.

(These skills will not prepare you for battle, but they can supply you with extra strength. Therefore they too should be a part of military training. On the other hand, civilians who do not have much strength can also learn much that is useful from these skills, which is why I have included this chapter at the end.)
　　Boxing arts do not seem to be useful skills for the battlefield, but they exercise the hands and feet, and accustom the limbs and body to hard work. Thus they serve as basic training. Therefore I have included this discussion of them as the final chapter, in order to complete this study [of military theory].

Part of why I scoff at "combat" ____ in marketing.

[wayne hansen]

I like what Iain says
My teacher always stressed
Hands to fists
Not fist to hands
Don’t give away your intention by taking a stance
San Ti can be done without it being obvious
Pushing hands is like SJ grip fighting without gripping
San shou teaches where to go from 88 various places when you add in the unders and overs it shows many other lines of response
I like Iain and will look into more of his stuff but I think I need Billy Conolly to translate

[GrahamB]

As much as I enjoy Mr Abanethy’s videos (and I do) he seems to be parroting the exact same nonsense that “traditional” martial artists have been saying since the 1990s and UFC 1, so in that way nothing has changed. It’s an exercise in the straw man argument:

He sets up the flase dichotomy between “sports” (or “modern”) and “traditional” martial artists, when in fact there is no easy distinction to make - the biggest ‘sport’ marital arts like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Boxing or Muay Thai are in fact older than many “traditional” marital arts like Aikido, Karate and Taekwondo - it’s these “traditional” martial arts that are in fact, “modern”. Sport fighting is ancient for a reason.

So, moving on from that he then sets up the straw man argument that “sports” martial artists can’t distinguish between techniques that work within a sporting context and those that would work on the “street” (which is another straw man concept)

His argument is one of context - that “the objective is key” - define the objective then work back to the most effective way of achieving that.(to paraphrase) He says: “it’s not a matter of what works or doesn’t work, but a matter of what’s relevant or irrelevant”.

I say (with respect to the man because I think he's great ) bullshit!

Some things work and some things would never work in a month of Sundays. Just admit it Mr Abernethy. Some of the kata applications he teaches I don’t think would “work” in real life.

The other thing is, I can spar BJJ with complete realization that I wouldn’t want to be turning upside down underneath my opponent in a real life confrontation. I have the mental ability to differentiate between those two things, as does everybody else. Musashi was wrong when he said “you can only fight the way you train”. We are not automatons, we are human beings.

The things is “sports” marital arts (which are often the real “traditional” martial arts) is that you get to spar with resistance, and doing all that sparring with resistance is what builds all the skills that actually translate to real life situations- dealing with aggression, dealing with non compliance, dealing with an attackers strategy, dealing with trickery, dealing with the adrenaline surge, having enough cardio not to pass out, getting used to being hit, being thrown and being submitted.

You can do 1 step, 2 step, ’you do this, I do that’ type applications all day while looking down on “sport” fighters who do stuff that follows rules… but look in the mirror. It’s the way you train that matters not what label you put on your marital art.

Sorry to everybody offended by this. But going on to what he says about guards - what he says there is actually pretty damn good.

[Bao]

Most people don’t understand that you need to first understand and learn how to use Tai Chi strategy and tactics for the "techniques"/applications to work. Tai Chi represents a way to relate and adapt to the opponent that is very different to the western type of trading-punches-chasing-points fighting game.

I like what Iain says
My teacher always stressed
Hands to fists
Not fist to hands
Don’t give away your intention by taking a stance.

I have been taught the same.

Also that you need to keep your hands up, but that it should not look as you have a guard. You should not show any intent and not signal any attack.

"Nothing to something. Something from nothing."

However, speaking about real situations and real aggressions, if you can remain calm, "empty", and don't react to either aggression or action, most people won't even initiate an attack, and lose the will to start a fight. Most people need a certain "trigger", to make a person fall into the monkey-see-monkey-do trap. If you refuse to be that second monkey, the first monkey has no one to play the monkey dance together with.

[wayne hansen]

Take a rugby league or union player
Two similar games,fitness equal
Yet it takes time to adapt from one set of trained reactions to another
I don’t know if he’s right or wrong but it is food for thought
What I train is as it is meant to be used
Each day I think I should be forgetting all this martial stuff and train at a higher level
Each day I fail