Jian v knife

[origami_itto]

I don't see the scabbard being used that actively honestly.

I think it would make more sense to me to go flat on the arm the way the sword lies in the opening of the form, or hang down, used like a parrying dagger or baton in western equivalent.
T. T. Liang did a double sabre and a double jian (w/tassel) form. I think there is a lot to be said for dual-wielding. Even a sabre AND a jian, imagine the potential!

There is a dong double stick form as well that explores that skill set.

[Steve James]

I haven't finished watching, but here's the only vid I could find of someone using the scabbard. It's with a dao, but same concept.


Anyway, the dao he's using has a belt loop.

[wayne hansen]

I like Kuttles stuff
He is holding the scabbard the opposite to how it was shown in the form
From memory he is CLF and uses it in a hard style manner

Tt Liangs double forms are also hard style

The difference with how hard style Jian is done it is more about stepping and running
Tai Chi Jian is about feeling and folding

[wayne hansen]

https://youtu.be/MBQlF2XW98Y?si=-SRfc3WIwAht65xU

[origami_itto]

What makes his double forms hard style? Can you show us yours so we can see what it's supposed to look like or is this just more empty talk?

[wayne hansen]

Liang saying they were

[origami_itto]

Makes sense

[Steve James]

Saya is the word I was looking for. Here's an expert showing how it's used with the katana. At least it contains some useful concepts.

[wayne hansen]

Reminds me of one I was shown years ago where u only pull 6 inches of the katana out of the scabbard and use that to cut the attackers wrist

[origami_itto]

I do like that idea. I've seen discussion of using it like a buckler for blocking, an interesting dynamic to add for sure.

That’s the idea. Also holding the scabbard with secret sword allows the scabbard to be held more securely against the forearm, and the open end can also be used for a thrusting strike.

I’ve always wondered about the term “secret sword”. It could be 秘剣, which could be read as “secret/mysterious sword”, but as a verb 秘 also carries with it the meaning of “block/obstruct”. So it could also mean blocking/obstructing sword.

There’s also the term 剣韬, which could translate as “sword concealing” or “sword secreting”, but what’s interesting in this case is that 韬 also literally means scabbard, and 剣韬 therefore means “sword scabbard”.

Either way, when I studied Jian, I took the scabbard to be integral to the training and the form.

In "Tai Chi Sword: Classical Yang Style" by Yang Jwing Ming he uses jian 剑 jue 诀.

This meaning indicates that the sword fingers are the secret (of the) sword (art), they are not a sword that is a secret, but the practice of projecting energy into the off hand to balance your movements is the secret of properly practicing the form. If you're not doing that, then you're not projecting it into the weapon either.

A martial sword with a metal scabbard would definitely use the sheath for blocking. A wood one, not so much. The Wudang form is very much a "scholar's form" so you don't see that practiced normally.

So I dug a little into this and the modern source, Chen Weiming

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... iji-sword/

"your left hand, pinched to make a swordsman’s hex, is in front of your chest"

"Chen Weiming calls the empty hand (predominately the left hand) literally "the hand pinched into a secret sword (shou nei jian jue), which is know elsewhere as "finger sword." I have rendered it "feigned sword." "

左手揑劍訣在胸前。

Pinyin:
Zuǒ shǒu niē jiàn jué zài xiōng qián.

English:
The left hand holds the sword's secret in front of the chest.

Original Characters:
左手 (zuǒ shǒu) - left hand
揑 (niē) - hold
劍 (jiàn) - sword
訣 (jué) - secret
在 (zài) - in
胸前 (xiōng qián) - in front of the chest

Now google translates 劍訣 (Jiàn jué) directly as "Sword Art"

But looking up "swordsman's hex" gets you a ton of results.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2018/08/16/sundial-sword-ziwu-jian/
子午劍
SUNDIAL SWORD
順德黃漢勛編述
by Huang Hanxun [Wong Honfan] of Shunde

劍雖未换手作刺擊劈殺之用，但劍訣乃練劍者必經之階段，㪽謂未練劍先練訣必修之課。
Although the sword has not yet switched hands to do any stabbing or chopping, the swordsman’s hex still has to be practiced. It is said: “To train with the sword, you must first train your swordsman’s hex.”

(liàn jiàn xiān liàn jué)
練 (liàn) - practice
劍 (jiàn) - sword
先 (xiān) - first
練 (liàn) - practice
訣 (jué) - secret

And check this out even, white guy dressed like a monk makin kung fu movies.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1287692424645115

[Trick]

https://cn.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ex=0&itb=0

[origami_itto]