XYQ clips from tadzio...

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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby xingyijuan on Thu May 29, 2008 8:55 pm

bartekb wrote:
Do you think he shakes because his fist is not closed tightly, or is it some other reason?

As he is not hitting any target I would assume its the energy that in other case would manifest in the target.
The shaking looks to me as not forced at all - compare with some flowery fajin "chen" guys try to fake sometimes:)


Maybe some Chen guy fake it. But most of them, when talking about palms, they shake it because they are relaxed at the tip of the fingers, which is good. This is not the case here. It is a fist. How can the "energy'" transfer to the target if the fist is not tight? When you punch, you try to have your fist as tight as possible at the last possible moment, am I right? If so, how can it shake like that if it would be tight? Have you tried to shake like that with a closed tight fist? I hard, I tell you. That's why I say it goes against what I have been taught so far.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby Brady on Thu May 29, 2008 9:51 pm

Did his fist not look tightened to you?
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby Chanchu on Thu May 29, 2008 9:59 pm

"When you punch, you try to have your fist as tight as possible at the last possible moment, am I right? If so, how can it shake like that if it would be tight? "

If the old master in the vid clip shown hits somone with that type of hand and energy- they will be in very rough shape for sure. Just my idea from watching the clip.

That's very high level hsing-i- quite rare to see it IMO
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby ors on Fri May 30, 2008 2:28 am

Well, I am certanly not a xingyi guy, but I think I can see soemthing about his shaking. The fist is shaking because he uses his tendons instead of muscles. He streches his arms continously from his back, making his joints expanded (or open, if you like) so that his tendons can lenghten a little bit. He is continously expanding, and in this way he makes a tension in his arms. It is just like you pull an elastic rope, inside your body. Whe he release power, this rope is "shaking", and that causes the shaking of his fists...

So, it is certanly not that kind of relaxed shaking, than in some chen guys performance. I would say Lei Muini's (Chen Fake's student) performance has something from that kind of shaking, and I can see something similar here with an old gao bagua practioner from Tianjin:



I think... But I may be wrong, naturally...

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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby middleway on Fri May 30, 2008 4:31 am

There are things I like, but some I dislike. I can see that power is a main concern. His movements are strong, fast and crisp and, if you take away the shaking still, his strike delivery is not bad. But how is this extraordinary?


Re-read what i said and what you quoted ... i said it was an INTERESTING expression of Xing Yi ...

When you punch, you try to have your fist as tight as possible at the last possible moment, am I right? If so, how can it shake like that if it would be tight? Have you tried to shake like that with a closed tight fist? I hard, I tell you. That's why I say it goes against what I have been taught so far.


I disagree with the idea that when you punch your fist must be held tight although it is certainly relevant to some strikes ... but not all in my opinion.

Any punch is mainly about alignment of the fist or more specifically the point of contact with the direction of force. the easiest way to explain the idea is this.

Place your fist on a wall relaxed, align your forearm with your fist and push hard ... you will notice that due to alignment your fist doesnt have to be tight to support the entire force of the body.

Of course holding your fist tight offers some protection to the wrist joint, But it certainly isnt a pre-requisit in my opinion and as long as you can strike accurately with good alignment then the wrist will be safe... even on a soft and moving target.

regarding the shake.... we can speculate all we want but we dont practice their line so i guess the only person that can really explain it is Tadzio.

But if you look at his shoulders you can see he is very relaxed so something is going on asside from muscular induced shaking ... Also the peircing movement he does a couple of times shows how short the force is there... it is being expressed in inches/cm's ... not in the long motions....

But as i say its all speculation and thats why i like the video ... its interesting ... and it certainly shows something good ... i just dont know what that is!! LOL

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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby xingyijuan on Fri May 30, 2008 5:18 am

I agree with alignment but I don't believe it is enough to make it a good punch. The reason we tense up at the last fraction of a second is to send the energy into the opponent and that it does not come back. Could you have the same result with a soft fist?

regarding the shake.... we can speculate all we want but we dont practice their line so i guess the only person that can really explain it is Tadzio.


I doubt Tadzio is interested in discussing the same old same old. IIRC last time he hesitated discussing the specifics of this video.

But as i say its all speculation and thats why i like the video ... its interesting ... and it certainly shows something good ... i just dont know what that is!! LOL


LOL! I guess then if we are not going to study in Shanxi for 5 to 10 years, we'll just have to leave it like that! ;)
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Fri May 30, 2008 5:36 am

I am curious about the shaking too. Maybe he is just old like Ozzy? As far as a clenched fist I am up in the air on that. IMO a relaxed fist can transfer energy into the target just fine without worry about it coming back.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby C.J.Wang on Fri May 30, 2008 5:53 am

High-frequency vibration has the effect of delivering maximum whole-body power in minimum time. It is the kind of power that can pierce through the body and do internal damage. The person on the receiving end would drop on the ground in agony rather than being pushed away.

Few years ago I ran into a Fukien White Crane guy in Taiwan who demonstrated a similar "shocking" strike on me by patting me on the back with what seemed like a light tap. When I got hit, I felt a strong pulse of electricity traveling all the way down to the front of my ab and immediately disappeared. It was a strange experience because I could remember how my mind just went blank and body frozen for a split second.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby middleway on Fri May 30, 2008 6:36 am

The reason we tense up at the last fraction of a second is to send the energy into the opponent and that it does not come back. Could you have the same result with a soft fist?


on a static arm (as in an arm not traveling through space .. just held out) what is the direction created by tensing the fist ... back into you ... the wrist joint closes up, the forearm muscle shorten... the direction created is back. This means that at the moment of tensing you are infact pulling back slighting with your mucles, closing your wrist joint and creating a backwards power within the forwards power of the arms movement through space. so maximum transfer of force cannot happen.

The idea is not that the wrist and fist is 'soft' as in 'floppy'. But that it is relaxed and the wrist joint aligned and open, allowing force to travel through it without the 'pullback' of the forearm muscle tensing and the wrist joint closing...

This is just my understanding from experience ... may be way off but it works for me... :)

Like i said the tensed fist IS useful sometimes ... just not a rule for all IMO.

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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby bartekb on Fri May 30, 2008 7:40 am

I agree with alignment but I don't believe it is enough to make it a good punch. The reason we tense up at the last fraction of a second is to send the energy into the opponent and that it does not come back. Could you have the same result with a soft fist?

Hmm, whats left is this mysterious punch boxers receive - done with a boxing glove - would assume quite soft material?
Surprisingly boxing gloves can cause more direct brain damage than the bare fists - which usually cause more external damage.

A police trick would be for example hitting someone in the forehead through the phone book - the material is soft enough not to cause any external damage but its painful and can easily knock a person unconscious.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby xingyijuan on Fri May 30, 2008 7:50 am

on a static arm (as in an arm not traveling through space .. just held out) what is the direction created by tensing the fist ... back into you ... the wrist joint closes up, the forearm muscle shorten... the direction created is back.


Ok, but what does that do to a dynamic, moving, arm? Does it affect it that much?

Thinking about it, I am guessing that this is what create what I could only describe as a whiplash effect when I punch. The arm goes forward, all muscles relaxed. At the moment of impact, the fist tenses, producing what you have described, it creates this whiplash effect, amplified by the immediate release of tension in the fist and arm. I hate putting physical movements into words because English is not my first language, but this is how a get the best results when punching the heavy bag. But then again, maybe I just don't get it ;)
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Fri May 30, 2008 1:19 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:I am curious about the shaking too. Maybe he is just old like Ozzy? As far as a clenched fist I am up in the air on that. IMO a relaxed fist can transfer energy into the target just fine without worry about it coming back.


Hey man, don't diss the Ozz man, I am a mad Sabbath fan and his solo stuff is good too ;D

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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby bigphatwong on Sat May 31, 2008 2:12 pm

Say what you will about his arm, but that is one of the most powerful looking beng quan I have ever witnessed. You can see how the force vibrates upon delivery, and the thick, cohesive movement he demonstrates. IMO focusing on only one part of the chain is missing the point...watch what the whole body does. It actually does remind me a lot of white crane.. a clean, crisp execution of force.

Hats off to tadz for sharing that.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby Pandrews1982 on Sat May 31, 2008 5:41 pm

I think that the shaking is just a result of being very relaxed in the arm and stopping suddenly the result is that the energy has nowhere to go to when the arm stops so it causes the vibration. This is often seen when a person "stops" their movement short and they have relaxed arms, the energy of he movement is stopped dead by the feet and issues out of the arm, once its released the relaxed arm rebounds because there's nothing moving it forward anymore, like a bungee rope, as already said by Kenneth Fish, an elastic response.

Think of whiplash injuries in a car crash its a similar thing, the energy the car stops dead on impact (body), the passenger keeps going (arm), the seatbelt stops them going foward (full extension of tendons), the passenger bounces back aganst the seat and is "shaken" by further rebounding.

When striking for real I doubt the shaking would be as evident because the energy would transfer to the opponent. There is definately some force there though, no doubt, but I don't think its particularly "high level" just shows he can be relaxed and has a decent ammount of energy to release.

Also depends on how you want the energy to enter the body of the opponent, to peirce all the way through you would want a more direct strike keeping relaxed but with good structure as it enters into the opponent, power is "on" the whole way, energy goes all the way through. Hebei xing yi uses this kind of energy a lot, it displaces the opponent cutting through their root so they find it difficult to get their footing, it also damages internal organs through the path of the strike so hits to head bad for brain, hits to chest effect lungs and heart, hits to adbomen effect liver, spleen and kidneys etc. Pain from this is quite sharp but often not evident straight away may take a minute or two to register that you're hurting on the inside. For an internal strike you'd look to just peirce the surface and let the energy enter the body, use a peircing/penetrating strike on contact but immediately turn the power "off" menaing the energy issues within the opponent. This is also known as cavity strike, not as direct as the piercing strike as the energy disperses within the body and doesn't move the opponent much but hurts like hell and feels similar to when you get kicked in the balls (a general intense ache type pain rather than sharp pain inside the body) except can be anywhere in the torso and is particularly bad for being hit in head as again its a knock out technique and can burst ear drums, damage sinuses etc. For a bright strike or surface strike (good for breaking bones and knock outs etc.) the power is on during the movement but off again the instant you strike, energy "explodes" at the surface without entering past the bones/muscle at the surface. This is like a crack of a whip and from what I've seen tai chi guys use this kind of striking a lot but it is in Xing Yi too, its also very effective against soft points and vital points (eyes, throat, temple, groin etc.) This is usually a very sharp pain, stinging or intense pain for a short ammount of time, unless of course you have broken something then its persistent.

All these are good, none "better" than the others and there are other ways of releasing energy as "fa jin" too though a lot are variations of the three kinds above. I think this guy is going for the internal strike type of energy.

Without actually meeting the guy and feeling the strike he is showing its a bit pointless in discussing how good it is really. You can get an idea of someone's ability form a video but without meeting them, understanding what they are trying to show, why they are doing it, how they would use it etc etc its hard to judge how good a specific movement or technique is being done.

B - boxing glove gives two impacts, one with the glove one with the fist within the glove. the result is a rebound effect of the brain within the skull, it gets shaken. Get hit once and one bit of the brain hits the skull and shuts off momentarily hit quickly in succession and the resulting bouncing can turn the brain off - knock out. This shaking kind of energy can give simialr results if done in a similar way. There are strategies in Xing Yi which look to replicate this effect too e.g. hit guy with a hook type puch twice in sucession with same hand, first hit twists brain in skull, guy turns head back into second hit and brain is "shaken" side to side in the skull - result knock out with relatively little force required. A good Pi to the front of the head can also bounce the brain back and forth and knock someone out, though a good pi to the front of the head can also break someone's neck so be careful with this.
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Re: XYQ clips from tadzio...

Postby TaoJoannes on Sat May 31, 2008 9:02 pm

xingyijuan wrote:
the shake during the fajin seems deliberate and forced. can anyone explain the logic behind that to me?


Could he be showing that his strikes are powerful yet relaxed?

and removing the political bullshit from the video is best i think.


Totally agree.

This video shows a very interesting expression of xing yi


But why? What does it show?

There are things I like, but some I dislike. I can see that power is a main concern. His movements are strong, fast and crisp and, if you take away the shaking still, his strike delivery is not bad. But how is this extraordinary?


I don't give a hoot about politics, for better or worse, but the shaking looks like a product of tension and isolated movement to me. I get recoil when expressing power against nothingness, but it feels like it goes more into the frame.

I'm sure he'd whoop my ass, but it looks like the recoil is stopping at the shoulder.
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