Jin Gang Ba Shi Li Taiji Quan - Master Zhou jingxuan

[Jingang]

One more thing I forgot to mention, we do have a practice called Luo-han-gong. I've never seen it before but from what Zhou shifu told me it's a slow taijiquan like practice. During one of me lunches with Zhou shifu and Shen Shiye I asked Shen jiarui about it and he only performed two moves which where pretty fast. Hopefully next time I see Zhou shifu I'll be able to learn it too (Last time I finished learning the Qinglong jian which is awsome Jian form).
I have a video with a Shaolin Luo-han gong (13?) practice but I don't know if it's the same routine.

Thanks for the interesting conversation

[salcanzonieri]

One more thing I forgot to mention, we do have a practice called Luo-han-gong. I've never seen it before but from what Zhou shifu told me it's a slow taijiquan like practice. During one of me lunches with Zhou shifu and Shen Shiye I asked Shen jiarui about it and he only performed two moves which where pretty fast. Hopefully next time I see Zhou shifu I'll be able to learn it too (Last time I finished learning the Qinglong jian which is awsome Jian form).
I have a video with a Shaolin Luo-han gong (13?) practice but I don't know if it's the same routine.

Thanks for the interesting conversation

Thank you as well.

I teach that Luohan 13 Gong set and the other sets that go along with it, it can be done as a taiji like qigong set or as a fast Quan set.
That would be something if it is the same routine more or less!

The same Shaolin lineage (shi degen, died in 1968) does the Luohan Gong and the Jingang Bashi, as well as Rou Quan qigong and quan routines. Also a Liu He Gong routine featuring 6 movements that correspond to Lungs, spleen, liver, triple burner, heart, and kidneys.
And a Chan Yuan Gong and Chuan Yuan Quan set of over 8 postures.

[D_Glenn]

Thanks for the answers.

As for the 128 hands in Li ruidong's lineage, I do know they practice at least the 64 hands we call 64 ying-shou (硬手). In the link that SPJ gave it's possible to find the names for these 64 hands under the name 跑打功六十四路
here: http://bbs.lybbs88.com/viewthread.php?tid=19404

In Shi yushan's line age we also have 64 hands called 64 ruan-shou (软手). I do not know if Li ruidong's students practice it now but Yuen-Ming who also writes here and comes from Li's lineage claim they do practice them.

For the past 5 years I've been practicing Jingang-bashi (Shi' lineage) and researching it's origins and would love to find more information on the 128 hands or see variations of them in other arts. But so far couldn't find anything. I do know that Master Zhou practices two versions of Jingang-bashi. The first is the old version transferred from Shi yushan (many gong-bu) and the second is Tian jinzhong's (student of shi yushan) version which has Wu xiufeng's Baji influence in it (the stance looks more like Baji step). The difference is not big. When I learned the 128 hands Master Zhou showed me the differences so I'll know both versions.

I don't know if this is the right post but these 8 are very interesting from Baguazhang viewpoint, are they part of the 64 hard hands?

(四)转功八式
歌诀：
五岳朝天世为尊、急提盖掌似天神；
顺势冲锤穿宫过、劈山挑打盖乾坤；
熊罴蹲纵转身走、蛇形撞掌走八门；
龙形亮掌圈身去、探马挑打气势浑。
此式是强化身灵步活的训练方法，利用巧妙的身法与灵活多变的步法来配合迅猛多变，刚柔相济的发力动作，充分地体现了以身带手，以腰为主宰，而且变化莫测，忽隐忽现，忽隐如雾里潜龙，忽现如拨云见日，显示了八卦错综之妙与八门的神奇变化，不论在任何条件下都能应付自如和随意展发。在练法上，每式都含三招八法，即一招分三式，一式衍八法。攻即是防，防即是攻，正所谓不躲不闪，不封不闭，不招不架，不遮不拦，随机应变，玄妙无穷。

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[Jingang]

No, they are also a variation (one of 8) of the 8 basic hands

[yeniseri]

YuenMing,
It is interesting to note you stated Zhou sifu was mimicking Li Style taijiquan since he appeared (to me) to be playing Li style!
His structure does appear intact and it does seem distinct from Yang shi taijiquan of today despite being (Li sifu) being a student of Wang Lanting, an early Yang student.

[Yuen-Ming]

YuenMing,
It is interesting to note you stated Zhou sifu was mimicking Li Style taijiquan since he appeared (to me) to be playing Li style!
His structure does appear intact and it does seem distinct from Yang shi taijiquan of today despite being (Li sifu) being a student of Wang Lanting, an early Yang student.

Hello Yeniseri,

if you look at Li style curriculum you will see that there is a lot of stuff, much of which is not Taijiquan.
But a good (real) pratictioner/master of the Li family system will practice the whole curriculum (Shaolin, Bagua, Xingyi etc.) and everything will BE Taijiquan.
In this sense, he would be mimicking Shaolin, Bagua etc.

So if you compare Li style Neilan Pai curriculum with what Jinggang (the user here) knows it will look and feel different, while giving the precise impression of coming from the same source. Needless to say, inside it will be totally different.

In this sense, in my opinion, Zhou mimicks Li style but practices his own (other/main) stuff in fact - and I mean that as a compliment because that means that (again in my opinion) he has taken something (his main style) to such a good level which will override everything else he does.

Best

YM

[yeniseri]

That seems to be how it works in CMA!
You have Yang Luchan who studied Chen family style, who passed it on to /Wu Jianquan / Wu Yuxian / Hao Weizhen / Sun Lutang and they are all taijiquan. They all express differeing characteristics within synthesis, development and engineering with, as you state, in this case Li style showing a Shaolin method wrapped in a taijiquan template but still showing its Shaolin base.

Can you direct me to a link with someone who is an actual Li style exponent?
I would like to see their form expression vs Zhou sifu.
I would ask if there is difference from someone who "mimicks" (and does it well like Zhou Jingxuan) a form vs one who actually studied under a Li style master!?

thanks

[Yuen-Ming]

That seems to be how it works in CMA!
You have Yang Luchan who studied Chen family style, who passed it on to /Wu Jianquan / Wu Yuxian / Hao Weizhen / Sun Lutang and they are all taijiquan. They all express differeing characteristics within synthesis, development and engineering with, as you state, in this case Li style showing a Shaolin method wrapped in a taijiquan template but still showing its Shaolin base.

Can you direct me to a link with someone who is an actual Li style exponent?
I would like to see their form expression vs Zhou sifu.
I would ask if there is difference from someone who "mimicks" (and does it well like Zhou Jingxuan) a form vs one who actually studied under a Li style master!?

thanks

Anyone is a 'real' exponent, according to his own opinion and that of his line
So the best suggestion I can give you is to see as many people as possible and judge by yourself, after all the best pratictioner - as my teacher uses to say - is the one that after the encounter still stands ...

Best

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

I would ask if there is difference from someone who "mimicks" (and does it well like Zhou Jingxuan) a form vs one who actually studied under a Li style master!?

By the way, as a general rule at least in Taijiquan, what makes the difference between mimicking and practicing the actual form/frame is having embodied all the qualities of a particular style. This is done by way of all the basic drills, which traditionally are A LOT, which are where the actual juice is.
The form(s) is only a container in which all those separate qualities learned through the specific drills are put together at work at the same time

YM

[salcanzonieri]

Friend Eric pointed out this site (in Chinese):
http://www.wushu2008.cn/archiver/?tid-57011.html

It mentions that Li Ruidong had learned Yue Jia Quan!

Can someone who is a faster translator than me point out the highlights in english, please, thanks!