Jin Gang Ba Shi Li Taiji Quan - Master Zhou jingxuan

[salcanzonieri]

Well, I'd love to see a jingang-bashi that looks like what we do and didn't come from Li ruidong's lineage. I'm pretty sure you confuse Jingang Quan and Jingang-Bashi because both have Jingang in their name. Originally Jingang-bashi was called shaolin nei-yuan quan fa and the name Jingang-Bashi was adopted later on. So far, few people who contacted me and claimed that they also do a Jingang style turned out to be jingang quan practitioners or other styles that have jingang in their name. Jingang is a Buddhist name (vajrapany - see pic in my username) and is used in many different martial arts (I even heard of jingang in xingyiquan, shaolin jingang-quan and Tibetan white crane lion roar) that have connection with Buddhism or shaolin. I think you are probably also confusing the two. having forms name ba tang jingang jia (八趟金刚架) & ba tang jingang chui (八趟金刚捶) does not make them jingang-bashi . As I said before, not everything that has jingang in it's name is the same thing. I've watched Jingang forms of Chuo-jiao (on the net they are called Jingang-quan, which is very different than jingang-bashi)

I do not believe Jingang-Bashi can be the beginners level for Chuo jiao practitioners cause it has very advanced shenfa and it's level of sophistication is very high.

In my lineage of Jingan bashi we have 8 basic hands (with 8 variations), 64 hard hands, 64 soft hands (which are pretty advanced material) 8 linking forms few advanced forms (like qing long quan) and different weapon forms, in total it's more material than Chuojiao or fanzi quan have all together. I doubt this huge number of material can be a beginners level of any art.

My teacher, Master Zhou, used to do Yan qing fan zi and Chuo jiao (He did hebei style) when he was a teenager and he claims there is no Jingang-bashi in it. He only started learning Jingang-bashi after he met Master Shen jiarui (who never did chuo jiao).

you claim that: "All Jingang Bashi is basically the same, variations amongst lineages, but they clearly derive from the same source, especially in Hebei area." well, it would be nice if you could backup your words with some links to these so called jingang-bashi arts videos maybe even a website with the names of the moves.

As someone who also practiced chuo-jiao for a while i can vouch you it's very different than jingang-bashi.

In conclusion, you are talking about an exercise or forms named after a common name in martial arts (vajrapani) and confuse it with a different martial art which uses the same part of that name in it's modern name.

I am quite aware of the different versions of styles, etc., that you mention. I have been researching this for 30 years and many people know me for the historical articles I write for martial arts magazines.

Anyways, This training routine, the Shaolin Ba Shi (8 postures) along with the Shaolin Dan Shi (single postures) is a foundational set in 1600s era Shaolin Quan.

At some point during the 1800s, these Shaolin sets reached the Hebei area and became a major influence on not only the Ba Fan Men style, but also Xing Yi, Bagua Zhang, and Baji Quan, all styles that were very well known in Hebei at that time.
Masters of these Hebei styles learned Shaolin Bashi in their youth.

So, according to another Baji lineage with the same influence from Jingang Bashi, their Jingang Bashi can also be traced back to "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" (少林内院拳法). A Shaolin monk taught the art to Shi Yushan （石玉山）who later became the head of Tianjin's eleventh Guoshu Guan (national Martial Arts Association). one of Shi Yushan's disciples was Tianjin's Tian Jinzhong（田金钟）, who later studied with Baji Quan master Wu xiufeng（吴秀峰）. Tian Jinzhong merged the two arts together. So, there is Li's transmission and Shi's transmission into Baji lineages.

Also, there is a historical connection to Ba Gua Zhang, as the Jingang Bashi was incorporated by Ba Fan Shan, and Ba Gua founder Dong Hai Chuan had studied Ba Fan Shan and Jingang Bashi in his youth from his elder cousin, who was a famous Ba Fan Shan master in Hebei.

Masters from the many Hebei styles of the 1800s mixed together the styles of eagle claw, liu he men, xy quan, bagua zhang, ba fan men, baji quan, and tongbei quan.

少林金刚八 Shaolin Jingang Bashi

一降龙、Xiang Long - Subdue Dragon
二伏虎、Pu Hu - Beat Tiger
三分心掌、Fen Xin Zhang - Divide Heart Palm
四穿捶、Chuan CHui - Piercing Hammer
五盖捶、Gai Chui - Covering Hammer
六野马掌、Ye Ma Zhang - Wild Horse Palm
七捧肘推山、Peng Zhou Tui Shan - Hold Elbow Push Mountain
八单凤掌。Dan Feng Zhang - Single Wind Palm

Over time, the movements were changed as they merged in with the local Hebei styles.

Video, here's two videos of the hard to find Shaolin versions, first one from the famous Shi Degen lineage (of Zhu Tianxi today), and the second one from Liu Xian Rui:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS5ISjT1XqU (Shaolin Jingang Bashi 少林 金剛八式 - Shi Degen lineage) ignore the modern way of execution, the movements are obviously the primitive versions of what was later transmited to Baji Quan masters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XO85ewT6Ik (少林 金剛八式 by Lin Xian Rui 林宪瑞)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7n94_WT2s (Shaolin Dan Shi 少林 單式 Single Pattern by Lin Xian Rui 林宪瑞)

You can compare to the baji jingang bashi in the following videos:

Ma style Baji Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGSS7sEzQVc (Baji Quan Ba Shi)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPu1L96_gnw rows 1-4 (譚吉堂(Tan Jitang)演練金剛八式(Jin Gang Ba Shi)第1-4式 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfrjzcMmZN8 rows 5-8 (continued).

Huo style Baji Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCq01tS_JA (霍氏八極拳金剛八式1～4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpUlT_bGZfU (霍氏八極拳金剛八式5～8)

Tian style Baji Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxlXhZQZ2Wk (Xiang Long - all by Zhou jingxuan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6MU2rWbfSM (Fu Hu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUdJUcT1ysg (Long na)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEsVzLjSfl0 (Cheng chui)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvd5p-55iM0 (Tan Ma Zhang)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ne7VwOGcYc (Pi Shan)

Qiang & Huo style Baji comparisons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkJPWVzLFII (金剛八式－霍式圏捶・虎抱　強式虎抱)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiOlVbErTHU (金剛八式－霍式降龍・伏虎)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sJmyEnzlM4 (金剛八式－強式劈 山伏虎)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhGRt-YT1Os (金剛八式－霍式衝捶・川掌)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBb5R81XSeQ (金剛八式－強式探馬掌・霍式探馬掌)

[salcanzonieri]

Kang Gewu's research into the origins of Baguazhang says that Dong Hai Chuan probably learned Jingang Ba Shi when he was younger and thankfully we have these clips of someone with a high level of gongfu so we can actually see a connection and possible influence it had on his Baguazhang.

Yes, Dong learned bafanshou via his elder cousin, Dong Xianzhou, a Ba Fan Shou master, who was a student of the famous Li Gongren (master of both liuhe men and ba fan men styles). Shaolin bashi is part of bafanshou, it was originally from Shandong province, before that it was from henan and it was called Shaolin Duanda or Yue Jia Chui, later called Yue Jia Ba Shi and then Shaolin Bashi.
Cangzhou area Liuhe Men was combined with Duanshou Fan (close rang hand fanzi quan) resulting in Lianquan or sometimes known as Bafanshou.
This bafanshou has 8 hands that it's movements and postures are very similar to Bagua zhang's, even has same names.

[Jingang]

"So, according to another Baji lineage with the same influence from Jingang Bashi, their Jingang Bashi can also be traced back to "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" (少林内院拳法). A Shaolin monk taught the art to Shi Yushan （石玉山）who later became the head of Tianjin's eleventh Guoshu Guan (national Martial Arts Association). one of Shi Yushan's disciples was Tianjin's Tian Jinzhong（田金钟）, who later studied with Baji Quan master Wu xiufeng（吴秀峰）. Tian Jinzhong merged the two arts together. So, there is Li's transmission and Shi's transmission into Baji lineages."

Thank you for posting things I wrote myself. This is my Baji lineage.

I think you are missing my point:

1. Our Jingang-basji is a complete art which was originally called "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist". As most complete arts it has more than the basic 8 hands (which you claim other arts also have). The 8 hands are only the basics and the complete art has much more material to practice (128 more hands).

2. True, there might be other arts that incorporated the basic 8 hands but they didn't incorporate the advanced material which is very vast.

3. As I said, Li ruidong and Shi yushan didn't only learn the 8 basic hands, they learned the complete art. This is a reply to your first post which claimed he learned the 8 moves from a different source, Maybe he did maybe he didn't but he also learned the complete art of "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" from another source (as i mentioned a shaolin monk ). In short, learning the basic 8 moves from one source does not contradict learning these 8 moves again with 128 more moves from another source.

4. I'm not representing Li ruidong's lineage therefore I cannot claim I know their lineage history. Nevertheless I do have a book written by someone for that lineage and he claims that "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" was taught to Li by a monk and not a chuo-jiao or other teacher.

5. the names of the 8 hands of jingang you've mentioned are different than the names of the 8 hands we practice (only the first two names are the same) and not only the name is different but the moves are different too (some to the extent of being completely different). Only the tongbei video's you've linked here use the same names ans one should check the origins of their jingang (I suspect it came from Li shujin's baji).

6. Maybe this whole miss understanding was cause by me so I'll rephrase the original problematic sentence:
Original: From what I understand of Li ruidong's history is that there was never a real connection between his Jingang and his Taiji. His Taiji came from Wang lanting (student of yang luchen) and his Jingang came from a monk who lost to Wang lanting.
New version: From what I understand of Li ruidong's history is that there was never a real connection between his "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" and his Taiji. His Taiji came from Wang lanting (student of yang luchen) and his "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" came from a monk who lost to Wang lanting.

One last note, to my opinion things change in time. An art that was taught to two students 200 years ago (or in 1600) and created two different lineages might create two completely different arts 200 years (or year 1800) later.

I tend to use the name Jingang-Bashi when I talk about "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" cause that's the name we use in my lineage.

[BajiNooby]

Jingang, i think in this situation you should listen more and not only try to push the information you have. We all usually have only a part of the whole picture.

Very interesting Sal! I have always been a fan of your research and now it touches on one of my arts also , thank you.
We have the Jingang Bashi routine in our Baji line (Han family), as do most of the classical Baji lines. The jingang Bashi for us is 8 basic techniques (you can find them on our youtube channel starting from Cheng Chui: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NmQR-U7-Y ). We usually say that the Jingang Bashi was added by Li Ruidong, the teacer of Li Shuwen (1864 - 1934) and then through exchange between Li Shuwen and other masters it was adopted to Han family also. I have started to consider Baji as a huge mix sallad of different stuff, so this would just add more foreign ingredients to the mix .

[Jingang]

BajiNooby, I'd recommend reading before replying and it seems you clearly didn't read my answer

salcanzonieri, I'd love to hear about your research on the origin of the 8 jingang moves. By the way, have you met any of the people of Li ruidong's lineage or maybe shi yushan's lineage? Have you trained in any of the arts taught in this two lineages?
Do you know of anyone practicing the rest of the 128 hands we have in shaolin nei-yuan quan-fa?
From whom do you think Li ruidong learned the rest of the 128 hands (if they don't exist in Chuo-jiao and ba-fan-shou)?
Could it be possible that the 8 hands of jingang in Chuojiao and Bafan-shou are only a small portion of a bigger art?
The videos on the 8 hands in different arts are not new to me, I'd love to see anyone else doing the rest of the 128 hands and other forms.

[salcanzonieri]

"So, according to another Baji lineage with the same influence from Jingang Bashi, their Jingang Bashi can also be traced back to "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" (少林内院拳法). A Shaolin monk taught the art to Shi Yushan （石玉山）who later became the head of Tianjin's eleventh Guoshu Guan (national Martial Arts Association). one of Shi Yushan's disciples was Tianjin's Tian Jinzhong（田金钟）, who later studied with Baji Quan master Wu xiufeng（吴秀峰）. Tian Jinzhong merged the two arts together. So, there is Li's transmission and Shi's transmission into Baji lineages."

Thank you for posting things I wrote myself. This is my Baji lineage.

I think you are missing my point:

1. Our Jingang-basji is a complete art which was originally called "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist". As most complete arts it has more than the basic 8 hands (which you claim other arts also have). The 8 hands are only the basics and the complete art has much more material to practice (128 more hands).

2. True, there might be other arts that incorporated the basic 8 hands but they didn't incorporate the advanced material which is very vast.

3. As I said, Li ruidong and Shi yushan didn't only learn the 8 basic hands, they learned the complete art. This is a reply to your first post which claimed he learned the 8 moves from a different source, Maybe he did maybe he didn't but he also learned the complete art of "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" from another source (as i mentioned a shaolin monk ). In short, learning the basic 8 moves from one source does not contradict learning these 8 moves again with 128 more moves from another source.

4. I'm not representing Li ruidong's lineage therefore I cannot claim I know their lineage history. Nevertheless I do have a book written by someone for that lineage and he claims that "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" was taught to Li by a monk and not a chuo-jiao or other teacher.

5. the names of the 8 hands of jingang you've mentioned are different than the names of the 8 hands we practice (only the first two names are the same) and not only the name is different but the moves are different too (some to the extent of being completely different). Only the tongbei video's you've linked here use the same names ans one should check the origins of their jingang (I suspect it came from Li shujin's baji).

6. Maybe this whole miss understanding was cause by me so I'll rephrase the original problematic sentence:
Original: From what I understand of Li ruidong's history is that there was never a real connection between his Jingang and his Taiji. His Taiji came from Wang lanting (student of yang luchen) and his Jingang came from a monk who lost to Wang lanting.
New version: From what I understand of Li ruidong's history is that there was never a real connection between his "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" and his Taiji. His Taiji came from Wang lanting (student of yang luchen) and his "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" came from a monk who lost to Wang lanting.

One last note, to my opinion things change in time. An art that was taught to two students 200 years ago (or in 1600) and created two different lineages might create two completely different arts 200 years (or year 1800) later.

I tend to use the name Jingang-Bashi when I talk about "Shaolin inner-courtyard fist" cause that's the name we use in my lineage.

I hope you know that I am not arguing against you, I don't why but typed words on a screen get people riled up.
It's a great topic and fun to research.
I agree with all you 6 points above.
I think that all that is left of the Shaolin Inner Courtyard style in Henan Shaolin area is just the 8 Basic Hands and the Dan Shi.
Im sure that over time the lineage that decended from Shi Yushan continued to evolve.

What I think is cool is that the Shaolin Jingang bashi that is still practiced, that I learned, is obviously a primitive version of Li Shuwen's
bashi that came from Li Ruidong.
That's the connection to investigate.

Also, your style isn't just Baji, but something much different.
Whereas in Li Shuwen's baji lineages he passed on just the 8 Basic Hands.

[SPJ]

I have some information about the complete sets.

but I do not practice all of them.

I agree to what Jing Gang said and posted. His teacher and school do have the complete information and practice. I read some articles from Zhou's Chinese students and I also did some research.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6134

[salcanzonieri]

salcanzonieri, I'd love to hear about your research on the origin of the 8 jingang moves. By the way, have you met any of the people of Li ruidong's lineage or maybe shi yushan's lineage? Have you trained in any of the arts taught in this two lineages?
Do you know of anyone practicing the rest of the 128 hands we have in shaolin nei-yuan quan-fa?
From whom do you think Li ruidong learned the rest of the 128 hands (if they don't exist in Chuo-jiao and ba-fan-shou)?
Could it be possible that the 8 hands of jingang in Chuojiao and Bafan-shou are only a small portion of a bigger art?
The videos on the 8 hands in different arts are not new to me, I'd love to see anyone else doing the rest of the 128 hands and other forms.

I have only met people from Li's lineage, not Shi's. I trained for a while in Li's lineage, via Wutang School and also via another lineage.

Don't know of anyone practicing the rest of the Shaolin Inner Courtyard. It is considered long lost in Shaolin Quan.
More than likely, it is related to Shaolin Liuhe Men, 6 harmony system.

Did Li Ruidong practice the rest of the 128 hands? I don't think that research shows that he did practice it, he only learned the jingang bashi.
His Li 5 Star TJQ lineages don't practice any of it except the jingang bashi.

Yes, of course, the jingang bashi of hebei chuojioa/bafanshou is a small piece of a bigger art.

I don't have access to my files till the end of this week, when I do, I will post the information on how it went from henan to shandong to hebei.

[Jingang]

Thanks for the answers.

As for the 128 hands in Li ruidong's lineage, I do know they practice at least the 64 hands we call 64 ying-shou (硬手). In the link that SPJ gave it's possible to find the names for these 64 hands under the name 跑打功六十四路
here: http://bbs.lybbs88.com/viewthread.php?tid=19404

In Shi yushan's line age we also have 64 hands called 64 ruan-shou (软手). I do not know if Li ruidong's students practice it now but Yuen-Ming who also writes here and comes from Li's lineage claim they do practice them.

For the past 5 years I've been practicing Jingang-bashi (Shi' lineage) and researching it's origins and would love to find more information on the 128 hands or see variations of them in other arts. But so far couldn't find anything. I do know that Master Zhou practices two versions of Jingang-bashi. The first is the old version transferred from Shi yushan (many gong-bu) and the second is Tian jinzhong's (student of shi yushan) version which has Wu xiufeng's Baji influence in it (the stance looks more like Baji step). The difference is not big. When I learned the 128 hands Master Zhou showed me the differences so I'll know both versions.

[salcanzonieri]

Jingang, i think in this situation you should listen more and not only try to push the information you have. We all usually have only a part of the whole picture.

Very interesting Sal! I have always been a fan of your research and now it touches on one of my arts also , thank you.
We have the Jingang Bashi routine in our Baji line (Han family), as do most of the classical Baji lines. The jingang Bashi for us is 8 basic techniques (you can find them on our youtube channel starting from Cheng Chui: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7NmQR-U7-Y ). We usually say that the Jingang Bashi was added by Li Ruidong, the teacer of Li Shuwen (1864 - 1934) and then through exchange between Li Shuwen and other masters it was adopted to Han family also. I have started to consider Baji as a huge mix sallad of different stuff, so this would just add more foreign ingredients to the mix .

Does the original Wu lineage from Mencun practice the jingang bashi?
It is said the Wu Zhong had practiced some Shaolin when he was a youth, before he learned from taoist Lai.
What some researchers think right now is that what was being taught from Lai was some kind of Yue Jia Quan.
This would explain why so much of baji quan, xingyi quan, bagua zhang, bafanshan, chen tjq, and other
martial arts share so much in common. At some point in their origin points all these styles have been influenced by LIuhe Quan, 6 harmony boxing, which is some kind of Shaolin treated version of Yue Jia Quan.
Yue Jia Quan was spread all over by the disbanded armies of the southern song dynasty. There was no real name for this body of material, it is simply called Chinese Central Plains Martial Arts.

Shaolin does practice a set of Baji Quan routines that are from the 1800s. One of Wu Zhong's students (forgot who at the moment) had exchanged material with Shaolin and taught them a series of routines.

Baji Quan seems to be composed of different segments that came from different roots.
From Wu Zhong's youth he learned both some Shaolin (who didn't back then?) and Muslim martial arts such as Cha Quan and Liuhe Quan.
From Daoist Lai he learned this central plains martial art that is considered to be Yue Jia Quan.
From Pi, he learned 6 harmony spear, which is also connected to the roots of many central plains martial arts, such as tongbi quan, tongbei quan, liuhe quan, chen tjq, yue jia quan, and more.

So. mencun baji has three aspects at their root.
Then over time, as in most styles, all the subsequent baji masters added more from their own personal life experiences.

Being that jingang bashi is practiced by so many different styles in shandong and hebei, it is not unusual that it would become part of baji quan as well in hebei.
If you trace who taught what to whom and when, you can see that there is much overlap between styles. Leihu men, eagle claw, ba fan shan, chuo jiao, xy, yanqing/mizhong quan, bgz, liuhe spear, and baji were practiced sometimes by the same people or social circles.

[yeniseri]

Sal,
Some excellent comparisons!
I see a heavy baji templte on Shaolin Jinggang, or is it the other way around. Nonetheless the pieces are there for extraploation.
I can also see where Dong Haiquan, a 'modernist', were he wanted to simplify MA, and instead of showing an external form, came upon the insight that an 8 basic palm (actually single palm + 7 variation (animals)! my guestimate/interpretation) with a circle walking component (intersecting a circle from various points) would be/can be/could be advantageous to a skilled pactitioner.

[salcanzonieri]

Sal,
Some excellent comparisons!
I see a heavy baji templte on Shaolin Jinggang, or is it the other way around. Nonetheless the pieces are there for extraploation.
I can also see where Dong Haiquan, a 'modernist', were he wanted to simplify MA, and instead of showing an external form, came upon the insight that an 8 basic palm (actually single palm + 7 variation (animals)! my guestimate/interpretation) with a circle walking component (intersecting a circle from various points) would be/can be/could be advantageous to a skilled pactitioner.

I think you are on to someting there with the idea that baji at least via Wuzhong's lineage (when it didn't have a name yet) may perhaps have been an influence on Shaolin and that was where Shaolin got their Jingang Bashi.
But, the dates might match up, would be convenient if they did. It was after 1735 - 1765 that Shaolin reached Shandong province, where the Mei Hua Men system was developed out of the Shaolin that was brought there by anti-qing warrior monks or rebels.
Wuzhong was from 1712-1802. So, it is possible that he learned from Lai after Shandong arts reached hebei and influenced village martial arts there.
I think that one of the people that brought the shaolin routines that became first Shandong Meihua Men and later shandong and hebei Ba Shan Fan (same stuff) was also called Lai. OR, it is possible that he introduced it into Shaolin.
We have to see how the dates would match up exactly.

The Yue Shi Lian Quan Ba Fan Shou (岳氏连拳 八翻手) is the alternate name for the very influential set with Shaolin origins that is the origin of the jingang bashi. Through this set, Shaolin Duan Da, Eagle Claw, Xing Yi, Bagua Zhang, baji quan, and Taiji Quan all link up.

Sometime during the 1700s, after the final push from the Qing emperor to clear Shaolin of "martial monks", a group of people left Shaolin area and went to Shandong province. There they taught a series of material that eventually became known as Shaolin Mei Hua Men and sometimes it is called Shaolin Taizu Men.
One of the sets taught was called Yue Jia Duan Da Chui (Close Range hammering strikes of the Yue Fei family.
This set's contents eventually merged into the Ba Fan Men style of Shandong, and then from there through various "monks" (actually anti-qing rebels) reached the earliest founders of not only the Eagle Claw style, but also the founder of Bagua Zhang, who's teacher cousin was a master of Ba Fan Shou. Soon after, practitioners of Tongbei Quan, Taiji Quan and Xingyi Quan in the Hebei (and Shanxi) area incorporated this material as well, creating their own version; for example, Wang Xinwu who studied with Liu Enshou and Xu Yusheng (students of Liu De Kuan).

You can see that the Ba Fan Shou has much in common with the previous post's Jingang Bashi of Shaolin and Baji Quan (and also part of the early roots of Bagua Zhang).

Some videos:
Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou - 岳氏八翻手

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stbB1ILKdFU or http://6.cn/watch/807004.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63rIaKKXX8 or http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f454047o1p322.html
http://www.56.com/u93/v_NDIzODYwNzQ.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f454047o1p321.html
http://www.56.com/u63/v_MjI5NDA1OTY.html

There are a lot more on YouTube under 八翻手.

[yeniseri]

That first clip is a thing of beauty.

I have never thought that "other" MA done slowly could rival Taijiquan's sophistication, but watching this chap's spiralling flow of coil and uncoil, I stand corrected.

Masterly.

But it makes sense!
Wang Lanting was a Yang style adept under Yang Luchan between the Chen family era and subsequent changes to Yang shi taijiuan, Wu Shi taijiqan and Li shi taijiquan. If we compare Ynag style of today to a Yang synthesis (Li style) there are, indeed, big external differences.

[BajiNooby]

Does the original Wu lineage from Mencun practice the jingang bashi?

The Mengcun lineage with Wu Lianzhi has nothing to do with Wu Zhong, only the last name is the same. The mengcun Baji comes from Tianjin, from Wu Xiufengs line. So if you want to look at older versions of Baji, you should look at stuff from the old families, Han, Huo, Li Shuwen lineages etc.

But very interesting this Shaolin connection .

[D_Glenn]

"Dong Haichuan (1804-1882) Originally from Jingnan, Wenan county. The founder of Bagua Neigong and Baguazhang. He was extremely passionate about martial arts from a young age. At 12 he became a disciple under an instructor named Li from Cang county in Hebei and from him studied "6 Harmonies Skills". In 6 years he successfully completed his training. He often made visits to various famous teachers. He searched though many famous areas, Wu, Yue, Ba, Shu and others.* Upon entering Jiangxi, deep in the mountains he happened to bump into 2 Monks, one Buddhist and Daoist. Each of them 70 years old. He became their disciple and under their guidance deeply researched "He Tu", "Luo Shu", "Yi Jing", "Yi Zhuan", "Former Heavan Bagua", "Post Heavan Bagua", "Pre and Post Heavan Harmonized in One Form Bagua Diagrams", "Damoniyuan Greater Vehicle Secrets"**, and other ancient philisophical texts and ancient practices. He worked on developing himself through both the Daoist and Buddhist paths. He delved very deeply into both. After his successfull completion of these studies, his teachers sent him down from the mountain to create a school of inner and outer cultivation in Baguazhang gongfu. The reputation he established sent shockwaves through the teaching community of the capital and through greater Jiangnanbei. He had 10 primary students and countless lesser pupils.***--from Xie Peiqi's Yin Style Bagua books.

* These are ancient place names for regions mostly around Zhejiang and in Sichuan. I can't say precisely on some of them because the regions they indicate has changed in some cases over the dynasties.
** This entire list is names of various sutras and religious texts. I have translated where I could but some of the names make no particular sense without the context and at least one of them the "Damoniyuan Greater Vehicle Secrets", in Chinese is clearly just a Chinese transliteration of an Indian term. So I have just left the pinyin in these cases.
*** - Translation by Bailewen


So sometime around 1816 we have Dong Haichuan possibly learning 6 harmony boxing.

.