GRANDMASTER HUANG SHENG SHYAN push hands

[B_Diniz]

any coments?

[TaoJoannes]

Dude. I know this will be severely panned, but that's some sweet-ass shit right there.

Granted, it's his students, but with a tenth of that sensitivity and skill, you're doing pretty dang good.

Like, the first one, it's hard to see, but the student is dipping and rising when he's going in, and dude just sets his ward off in more of an "an" type shape at a low point, so that when the student rises into his attempted attack, all that energy just goes right into his shoulders there and knocks him flat out.

And that's pretty much most all of what's going on there, old guy is finding those points in the structure that the student's body will have to move into, putting up a roadblock at a sensitive or vulnerable point on the student's body, then when the student moves into that roadblock, receiving energy occurs and the student gets all of the energy he's trying to give to the old guy delivered to that one sensitive/vulnerable point.

That press technique that he does around 0:54 is the same thing I was referring to in that other thread about the best skill I've experienced. I'd be willing to bet dude couldn't even feel the contact.

[bruce]

i think there is very little if no value in that type of training if you are training to be able to defend yourself from attack.
seems useless but until i feel it i cant say for sure.

[TaoJoannes]

Yes, I agree, knocking people on their ass with little overt movement is of no use whatsoever.

[Ben]

I think I'm somewhere between you guys. It looked okay to me but not great. Sensitivity is a good thing but you have to be able to use it. From what I see I think he has some skill but it isn't being shown too much here. They have too much hop to them.

[iwalkthecircle]

just wanna link the following two posts to this thread:
1) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=174




2) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=423&start=60

i knocked/throw/headLock them down while moving and canNot while standing.
i think in an actual combat keep moving is a better idea.

Sure, it's better in combat to move, as your experience illustrates, not only does that give someone more room to retreat, it makes entering much easier.

Sounds like they need to work on their moving-step more there. They seem to have a hard time translating the skills from one paradigm to the other.

For me, the fixed-step is merely a way of training that ability to hold your ground once your defenses have been breached, in moving step, the skills should basically come out when they're in the danger zone, if not, well, then, yeah, they spent TOO much time there.

why would you want to hold your ground once the defense have been breached...why not just run at 45 degree TOWARD them to escape after they push you away? (It is slower to run backward unless you spin around 360 degrees.)


i donot understand why most TCC people would actually practice fixed step PH before they practice moving, and since the goal is to do moving step to simulate actual combat.
i seen some of the moving PH matches from chen village that looks just like SC....

from your posting and mine, they are two sets of different skills.

Many people possess this kind of ability, I can do it to many potential opponents in varying situations, I've had it done to me. As I train more I get better at it. The combat value is self-evident to me, but I don't see it as some mystical mumbo-jumbo as much as it is simple physics.

I think the true question is whether these so call high-level skill has combat value or not.
This is something i been thinking about myself.
IF it is ONLY useful in static PH, it might be time wasted.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=423&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45
Whether someone on this planet possess this kind ability or not is one thing. Whether this ability has true combat value is another. There are many ability that we can develop in our life time. It's our choice to decide what we want to spend training time in it. IMO, I pefer to spend my time in "finish moves".

[TaoJoannes]

Here's what's going on there, largely.

Let's say A is attacker, and B is defender.

A comes in, tries to act against B's structure. B puts a part of his structure in a place that will intersect with where A is going to move, when A moves, his structure collides with B's at the point that B chose, so that A's energy expenditure acts against A's structure, and much hopping and scrambling occurs as A tries to figure out where the hell his inertia is going and how to get it under control before A falls on his ass.

We're all familiar with Tim Cartmells Groundproofing video, right? Where he talks about Dead Angles being the directions in which a particular structure formed by a particular stance has little or no ability to resist incoming force?

If you consider any particular motion made by a human body to be a sequence of structures, rather than an object moving or falling in space, then placing a stationary object somewhere in the path that the structure will go through is exactly equivalent to pushing against a static structure.

And just like you can tip over any given static structure by applying a very minor amount of force to the right spot, in the right direction, you can do the same by making someone run into one.

As far as for how to figure out where to put that structyre, you just have to let their movements tell you.

I'm not that good at it, yet, but it's comin.

[bruce]

Yes, I agree, knocking people on their ass with little overt movement is of no use whatsoever.

that display hardly counts as knocking people on their asses lol ... dumb students do not make a great teacher.

[TaoJoannes]

Yes, I agree, knocking people on their ass with little overt movement is of no use whatsoever.

that display hardly counts as knocking people on their asses lol ... dumb students do not make a great teacher.

Context is key. I know that there have been times in your life, no matter how strong you are, that the particular position you find yourself in leaves you incapable of putting any force at all in the direction you'd like to go in. You may also have found yourself in a position where your balance was hanging by a hair due to an incorrect or inappropriate movement at a critical juncture. Of course, usually, we're moving or falling through space too fast to notice, as the inertia hides the weakness, and, of course, as Master Wong says "You Human, you can move." so you can change your structure to eliminate the problem, if you can sense it before the opponent does, but the same can be said of any combat phenomena.

Another way to consider the feat is in comparison to alligator wrestling. A gator can put something like 2000lbs of force on whatever its biting, but the thumb and forefinger of an average man can prevent it from opening its mouth. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

The ability to seek out, or better yet, induce that state in an opponent, and then capitalize on that moment, is what this sort of demonstration is illustrating. I don't think this demo is so much a "training method" as it is a learning experience for the students, and an entertainment experience for the audience.

This sort of ability is exactly what I believe "real {tm}" taijiquan is all about.