Chengshi baguazhang with fajin

[josh]

Lots of people have asked me about these videos since I first put them up; all the information that I could find on these guys (taken mostly from the Chinese site where I got the videos in the first place) I put in the descriptions. They are supposed to be from Hebei, not China's most prosperous region, and I think it's fortuitous that we even get a chance to see video of them at all. If I come across any more info I'll be sure to post it...

[C.J.Wang]

The way they add fajin to Bagua is probably influenced by Hebei Xingyi, which is my guess.

[meeks]

In both branches I've been exposed to, even "explosive" power is delivered through continuous movement.

that's a better way of defining what I was trying to put to words. there is no 'stop' in cheng bagua after a strike...it just continues into something else. that's what I meant by implying 'it looks like xing yi in a bagua suit'. could be a lineage thing - I think someone mentioned he was from a lineage that connected xing yi with bagua, didn't they?
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this is also why I shudder when I hear the term 'fa jin' in bagua (and other styles) vs. a variety of jin which should be pervasive throughout.
so many forms are like this:
empty-empty-empty-empty-fa jin! empty-empty-empty-fa jin!

bagua doesn't work that way. I don't speak on behalf of other styles. it's just a transformation of various jins in unison. to 'fa' jin means to coordinate the orchestra of jins throughout the body in a sudden movement. Most 'fa jin' I ever witness is an explosive technique with no real harmony of the body.

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don't get me wrong - the old dude's got some serious stuff going on there... but it's a very ....eclectic... bagua...
he seems hell bent on bai yuan xian tao (white ape offers peach) and jin bu tuan zhang (closing step gather and thrust)

[D_Glenn]

This isn't, IMO, at all a similiar force to xingyi but rather what Cheng 'longxing' needs to contain which being it comes from the zhen trigram it always contains a 'zhen' (shock) force which is somewhat similar to Shuai Jiao's 'dou' (shake), it can be a 'fa' (emit) but is really it's own jin as the brother demonstrates the multiple consecutive 'zhens'/shocks. The 'longxing' is correctly considered long and continuous which that also demonstrates.

In this particular style of bagua the 'fa' is typically at the beginning, then follow through, or hit, follow through and 'fa' at the end, but what may look like a 'fa' is actually a 'zhen'/ shock or jerk to 'change'. When the 'longxing' borrows the tactics of the 'shexing' or as it would be called in Cheng style the 'shun shi zhang' (flowing with palm) it will use the tactic of withholding the 'fa' in order to manifest the snake's tactic of 'no ending, no beginning'. The key point is that it's 'holding back' the 'fa', so obviously it has to be trained first as you can't hold back something you don't have.

The 'longxing' wants to start small and become big, so it's postures are small but movements are long and continuous, it can 'fajin' with a big wave but more like a quick pulse or shock and only if it has to, so typically the movements themselves are enough so in a sense it doesn't usually need or want to 'emit' but it's always there 'backing up' it's power.

The 'longxing' also uses the back so that's another thing that's demonstrated is the moving from upright to leaning, the lean is not like in some xingyi where it's fixed, power in this form of bagua is moving into or out of a lean using what is called the 'ting li' (straight; upright force). This is demonstrated more in the 2nd brother's clips.

The moving into and out of a hollowed out chest in these clips is the 'han li' (containing force). These 2 forces are primary while the twisting of the waist for power is secondary in this style.


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[somatai]

Devlin,

great post as always, i appreciate the time and information you share. You for my $ have the clearest sense of the art and it always sheds light on my understanding of YSB(although I no longer train it, it still informs my own exploration of the art retrospectively) Just wanted to say, keep it up, you have put in a lot of time and have worked hard for some real understanding and it shows.

best,
Derek

[D_Glenn]

Thanks D. Actually i've only found 2 yin style essays online and of course all the first hand information on it, but a lot of the info I'm gathering on the dragon comes from all the Cheng style essays that are online.

Compare these videos to those videos of Xie doing the dragon, that's pretty cool right there. Another thing to think about is how the shenfa comes from the weapon, like in the dragon style it comes from the large saber where adding in a 'fa' to hacking slashing cut with the sword wouldn't really add anything, so the 'fa' is used when the sword is blocked up at the guard in order to get the distance to slice, or in other words at the beginning. In a style that comes from the spear the 'fa' does travel down it's length to the tip and does add to the stab, so 'fa' at the end.

The lion came from a 2-headed spear that were more like two short spears in each hand. The phoenix came from "elbow knives" which were some sort of reverse type blade that went back towards the elbow. Unicorn I believe was the Jian/ straight sword, Bear was maybe a steel pole. Another thing I figured out is look at the the animals that are across from each other on the post-heaven bagua, as they are like opposite sides of the same coin- lion and phoenix, or bear and unicorn, snake and rooster, and dragon and monkey- dragon pushes away, monkey pulls back in, dragon is the beginning of the kicking methods in bagua, the monkey finishes them.

What are the primary weapons in Xin Yi?

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[somatai]

"I figured out is look at the the animals that are across from each other on the post-heaven bagua, as they are like opposite sides of the same coin- lion and phoenix, or bear and unicorn, snake and rooster, and dragon and monkey- dragon pushes away, monkey pulls back in, dragon is the beginning of the kicking methods in bagua, the monkey finishes them."

this is the same in xin yi, Monkey is small bear, snake is small dragon.....those are all I know so far or can recall at the moment....size and shape detrmines the spirit and strategy of the play, but there are fundamental similarities.

the main weapon is a stick with a smaller stick chained to it.....like an asymetrical nunchuck.....can't think of the name in chinese.

[shawnsegler]

"I figured out is look at the the animals that are across from each other on the post-heaven bagua, as they are like opposite sides of the same coin- lion and phoenix, or bear and unicorn, snake and rooster, and dragon and monkey- dragon pushes away, monkey pulls back in, dragon is the beginning of the kicking methods in bagua, the monkey finishes them."

this is the same in xin yi, Monkey is small bear, snake is small dragon.....those are all I know so far or can recall at the moment....size and shape detrmines the spirit and strategy of the play, but there are fundamental similarities.

the main weapon is a stick with a smaller stick chained to it.....like an asymetrical nunchuck.....can't think of the name in chinese.

A flail?

[somatai]

i guess....not so up to snuff on my flails......more like a 4 foot staff connected by a foot of chain to a 2 foot staff (numbers are a guess)

[josh]

I believe that particular weapon is called, in Chinese, shaozi gun 稍子棍.

[somatai]

thats it

[Joe L.]

Like this?

[somatai]

i believe so

[marvin8]

Video links are dead. Updating with a new link.

Cheng Baguazhang by Yang Fuqi & Yang Fuyu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ4aozWhviA

[greytowhite]

I found four videos of theirs and added it to my Cheng playlist. Interesting expression of the Cheng lineage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj9gMfS ... Yhx_42qAAG