Bagua Boxing Pad Work

[neijia_boxer]

you guys have nice power in the strikes.

here is some stuff I showed a few months ago

[Chris McKinley]

Conn,

RE: "Beg to differ here Chris , but could you say what you mean here. As I see it, this is an extention of ward off (not specifically Bagua) that can act as a block or clearing that turns into a open palm; or changes direction down after contact to wrap the opponents arms.". I like your two possibilities here...the open palm or the wrap....but that's not what I was seeing in the clip. It appeared to me that they were making contact with the back of the hand. IMO, that's a huge no-no in real combat...it's far too easy to bruise, fracture or break the carpal bones of the hand as well as to damage the nerve supply of the hand, making further use of the hand, either for combat or utility, difficult if not impossible. It's also possible I just wasn't seeing what was happening in the clip clearly, which leads to....

RE: ".....ah thats right, it is not a back hand strike.". Okay, gotcha.

RE: "You might be referring to around the 1.22sec mark, with the downward strikes.". That's certainly the stronger example. Even with an emphasis on vertical rather than horizontal circles, those strikes don't appear to have much penetrating power to them. I could be wrong; certainly with IMA, it's not always completely easy to tell. The downward palm at about 1:40 is a noticeable exception, so that's the kind of thing I'm referencing. That one has more whole-body power and it's easy to see the more pronounced effect on the pad as a result.

[64Palms]

Second attempt at posting this - sorry if it pops up twice.

Neijia - thanks for the clip. I can see more of a linear "boxing-esque" movement in your strikes, except of course when you do the large downward strike on the pad. Looks good - i would suggest more of a weighted (whole body?) follow through on some of the vertical hits.

Chris - i tend to disagree with your take on hitting with the back of the hand. As the clip itself is not showing back hand strikes i have had the fortune of using the dorsal part of my hand in a few fights with no injury whatsoever. Having said that i think it still is possible: especially when people swing widly with no structure (usually they spin) at someones cranium and end up breaking a hand or if they have poor conditioning and are aiming for the wrong places (e.g. top of head rather than face, base of neck etc) Baguazhang (at least Liang) has many "back hand" strikes which are highly effective.

Also in regards to Conn's power: as the one holding the pads and having sparred with him etc i can vouch for his power. Even his girly left hand slaps (sorry conn ) have got a natural power to them that has obviously come from his many years of work. In addition i also think that focus mitts are not the best for many of Baguazhang's palm strikes and perhaps something which is either a better shape (such as rounded) or heavier(like a Muay Thai pad) would make for a better "feel" in striking. This is part of our experiment with BGZ.

[Walk the Torque]

Actually Chris, I can see what you mean; and trying a few strikes with an extra bit of twist (at the beginning)there is more of a sharp & solid flavour to the strike.

The method I use to strike these days is more of a amalgamation of waves that combine vertical whip and a reversal type spiral action that, twists one way to store and the other to release. The reason that a lot of the stuff I do is not so pronounced, is due to my attempt at "shortening the arc" so that the momentum of the strike is forced into a smaller area, which in turn results in a "softer" but heavier flavoured strike. The penetration is there, it just doesn't show up too good on film.

Not really saying one method is better than the other, co's the latter can only be used once distance closed. The former is great for wedging in and maintaining good solid structure. They are just different.

The 1.40sec shot you referred to I would say was a bit more obvious and looks stronger, more follow through etc; but it is not the bulk of my striking methods these days.

I always enjoy your input anyway.

All the best

Conn

[Andy_S]

Coming at this form a boxing/kickbowing background, I'd echo Fuga's critiques of the first clip.

The point of pad work is that the feeder is both mobile and active: He can/should move, cue targets for the striker to hit, and even attack the striker: This makes pad drills alive, and requires the striker to not just hit, but move, react appropriately to target opportunities, make the distance, defend himself, etc.

In short, pad drills are two man drills.

If the pad holder is not doing any of these things, you may just as well use a bag.

In the second clip the feeder is cuing targets, but is largely immobile and not offensive. I also fail to see the point of the overhand palm when the pad is held at the waist: Tactically speaking, what kind of a target does that represent?

[Chris McKinley]

64Palms,

RE: "Chris - i tend to disagree with your take on hitting with the back of the hand", and "...i have had the fortune of using the dorsal part of my hand in a few fights with no injury whatsoever.". It's okay to disagree. It's your hand. It takes so little to produce debilitating injury to the back of the hand that I can't recommend it's purposeful use in combat to anyone....the classic coolness and satisfaction of the pimp slap aside. BTW, conditioning has absolutely zero to do with it. No amount of conditioning can reduce the vulnerability to injury of that area to any significant degree. Even placing steel plate over the back of the hand does very little to reduce the vulnerability to breakage of the carpals and mechanical damage to the underlying nerves.

RE: "Also in regards to Conn's power: as the one holding the pads and having sparred with him etc i can vouch for his power.". Yeah, that's certainly possible, which is why I allowed that that might be the case in a clip of IMA material. I know from both sides of the camera that video doesn't always do justice. I certainly have no reason not to take your word on Conn's actual ability.

As to the Muay Thai pads, they are some of my favorite. I prefer them to focus mitts by a wide margin for the difference in density. I have found that it is often more difficult to guage the amount of kinetic energy that penetrates into the target with a focus mitt. The mitt will pop away either way without giving enough tactile feedback. Sometimes even the amount or distance of the pop isn't really an accurate guage since I've found it's possible to pop the mitt a great distance from nearly zero distance if the amount of impulse momentum in the strike is good, whereas what I know from experience to be deeply penetrating blows might not move the pad the same distance.


Conn,

RE: "Actually Chris, I can see what you mean; and trying a few strikes with an extra bit of twist (at the beginning)there is more of a sharp & solid flavour to the strike.". That is exactly and precisely what I'm getting at. It's clear you have the ability since some of the strikes illustrate more of that power than others.

RE: "The reason that a lot of the stuff I do is not so pronounced, is due to my attempt at "shortening the arc" so that the momentum of the strike is forced into a smaller area, which in turn results in a "softer" but heavier flavoured strike.". I know exactly what you are referring to; it's what happens when you tighten the coiling and make more of that coiling happen inside the torso than outwardly in the limbs. If you are doing it right, there should be nothing remotely "soft" about the strike whatsoever. Toward that end, it appears in the video that, if you are internalizing that coiling in the body correctly, you may be "spilling" some of the kinetic energy out of the striking limb by, perhaps ironically, not making the striking arc small enough.

For example, the palm strikes in the first clip from about :55 to about 1:05 don't seem to have either internal coiling (given that your rear foot not only leaves the ground, it pivots, indicating release of whatever stored coiling energy it might have had) nor any particular whole-body follow-through upon impact either. The resulting amount of kinetic energy transfer into the mitt appears to be insufficient to cause any real damage or structural instability in the opponent. There's not a lot of 'pop', but that is likely due to the amount of tension with which Dave is holding the pad. However, if he's holding the pad with tighter tension like that then it might not pop but, if the strike has any significant power behind it, it ought to move his whole arm and body instead. The strikes in that particular time frame do not do that.

In contrast, the strikes beginning at about 1:37 exhibit more observable result in Dave's arm and body movement. It's not dramatic, but it's noticeable. One of the differences in your execution at that point is that you aren't hopping up and down quite as much immediately prior to throwing the shot. Another is that there appears to be slightly more body follow-through on those strikes than the others I referenced. Even a little bit of follow-through can translate to a big difference in the amount of momentum delivered into the target. Connection, even great connection, isn't enough unless significant amounts of momentum are transferred through that connection and into the target, which occurs more noticeably in the latter set of strikes I referenced.

If I may be so arrogant as to offer a bit of constructive advice, I would suggest that for your next such session, you concentrate on two simple factors:

1) if you're going to bounce a bit for mobility and unpredictability (which is valid, especially in a sport context), then consciously stop the bouncing for a brief instant just prior to executing the strike, and allow your structure to settle correctly first.

2) Upon contact with each and every strike, regardless of how small or large the coiling used in delivering it, add some follow-through with the body, rooted by the feet.

You're already doing both of those in some of the strikes in your clips. My recommendation is to focus your intent on making sure they both happen in every single strike, not just some of them. It may require slowing down the frequency (not the speed) of each strike as well as the speed of your pre-strike bouncing, but that's okay. You can always speed that stuff up later in a real sparring session or tournament.

After you have trained in this way, which functions as a great overall callibration of mechanics, then begin to incorporate fuga's recommendation of having the padholder move the pads around and configure them for combos. Do it in that order....get the callibration down first, then take that freshly callibrated skill and push it a little bit by increasing the unpredictability of the pads' placement/angle/configuration, etc. You'll get a lot more out of the session doing it in that order.

Best of luck and just like I stated with neijia boxer, please continue to pursue your development of these kinds of training sessions. You guys are getting a jump start on the kind of thing I'm trying to promote with my Bagua Combatives idea and it's nice to have fellow collaborators out there setting the example and pushing the message.

[64Palms]

Andy - thanks for the feedback. As what you say is valid it is not what we are testing in this clip. Pad work, in my opinion, has multiple "points" and can be trained as such. Again this is not a complete training session and we will surely post some more dynamic work in the future.

Chris - as your post was directed to Conn i'll let him respond specifically. However, that is some great and very constructive advice and is much appreciated. It would be great to see your Bagua Combatives idea in action and is possibly a very logical extension of the IMA.

All the best,

David

[Walk the Torque]

Look I'll echo Davids words for now, but I have a little more to say on the matter. I have the weekend off so I will post then.

All the Best

Conn

[Walk the Torque]

Hi Chris,

First let me say thank you for the time and effort you put into replying; its much appreciated.

I have found that it is often more difficult to guage the amount of kinetic energy that penetrates into the target with a focus mitt.

This is true..........

The mitt will pop away either way without giving enough tactile feedback. Sometimes even the amount or distance of the pop isn't really an accurate guage since I've found it's possible to pop the mitt a great distance from nearly zero distance if the amount of impulse momentum in the strike is good, whereas what I know from experience to be deeply penetrating blows might not move the pad the same distance.

...... and as I see it there are two distinctly different types of strikes. One, that is solid, structure driven and supported; and the other more whip like. When executing the whip like strikes it is very hard to tell what is happening without a significant amount of practice in this area. IME when done correctly, so that the strike is condensed into the pad, there will not however be a pop, loud snapping sound and such like from the pad; but instead mostly more thud like sounds and little movement

RE: "The reason that a lot of the stuff I do is not so pronounced, is due to my attempt at "shortening the arc" so that the momentum of the strike is forced into a smaller area, which in turn results in a "softer" but heavier flavoured strike.". I know exactly what you are referring to; it's what happens when you tighten the coiling and make more of that coiling happen inside the torso than outwardly in the limbs. If you are doing it right, there should be nothing remotely "soft" about the strike whatsoever.

I ment the subjective feeling due to the softness of the muscles, but I agree, it makes for a more dense and hefty strike.

Toward that end, it appears in the video that, if you are internalizing that coiling in the body correctly, you may be "spilling" some of the kinetic energy out of the striking limb by, perhaps ironically, not making the striking arc small enough.

This I totally agree with Chris; those kind of strikes are really hard to gauge with pads, as the person holding them needs to be in perfect sync with you in order to provide sufficient tension/feedback. I have thought about what you said though and will devise a way to practice striking with smaller movements with a partner. I can do the smaller limb movements but tend not to use them in sparring, mainly because my entering skills need to be modified in order to create the opportunity to use them. I'll work on it and get back to you.

For example, the palm strikes in the first clip from about :55 to about 1:05 don't seem to have either internal coiling (given that your rear foot not only leaves the ground, it pivots, indicating release of whatever stored coiling energy it might have had) nor any particular whole-body follow-through upon impact either.

Just a note on this, and I will qualify what my comment by saying yes, there is a definite difference between keeping (at least one leg) connected to the ground and not; but if you look closely at the timing of the shots you mention, you will see that the shot has landed before the back foot moves, and is also supported(in both structure and spiral)by the front foot. Also the leaping attacks, though not rooted also make use of spirals to launch from position a to position b. True that the strikes are more solid when rooted but they still have a sting.

The resulting amount of kinetic energy transfer into the mitt appears to be insufficient to cause any real damage or structural instability in the opponent.

I have it on what I consider decent authority to say this is not the case.

There's not a lot of 'pop', but that is likely due to the amount of tension with which Dave is holding the pad. However, if he's holding the pad with tighter tension like that then it might not pop but, if the strike has any significant power behind it, it ought to move his whole arm and body instead. The strikes in that particular time frame do not do that.

Not sure about this.

In contrast, the strikes beginning at about 1:37 exhibit more observable result in Dave's arm and body movement. It's not dramatic, but it's noticeable. One of the differences in your execution at that point is that you aren't hopping up and down quite as much immediately prior to throwing the shot. Another is that there appears to be slightly more body follow-through on those strikes than the others I referenced. Even a little bit of follow-through can translate to a big difference in the amount of momentum delivered into the target. Connection, even great connection, isn't enough unless significant amounts of momentum are transferred through that connection and into the target, which occurs more noticeably in the latter set of strikes I referenced.

Noted, and will work on simmering down the bobbing. I do though, sometimes move the momentum around prior to striking to simulate the effect of walking, which adds to the power. I'm not doing this in these clips though, so I take on board your comments.

If I may be so arrogant as to offer a bit of constructive advice, I would suggest that for your next such session, you concentrate on two simple factors:

1) if you're going to bounce a bit for mobility and unpredictability (which is valid, especially in a sport context), then consciously stop the bouncing for a brief instant just prior to executing the strike, and allow your structure to settle correctly first.

2) Upon contact with each and every strike, regardless of how small or large the coiling used in delivering it, add some follow-through with the body, rooted by the feet.

You're already doing both of those in some of the strikes in your clips. My recommendation is to focus your intent on making sure they both happen in every single strike, not just some of them. It may require slowing down the frequency (not the speed) of each strike as well as the speed of your pre-strike bouncing, but that's okay. You can always speed that stuff up later in a real sparring session or tournament.

After you have trained in this way, which functions as a great overall callibration of mechanics, then begin to incorporate fuga's recommendation of having the padholder move the pads around and configure them for combos. Do it in that order....get the callibration down first, then take that freshly callibrated skill and push it a little bit by increasing the unpredictability of the pads' placement/angle/configuration, etc. You'll get a lot more out of the session doing it in that order.

Best of luck and just like I stated with neijia boxer, please continue to pursue your development of these kinds of training sessions. You guys are getting a jump start on the kind of thing I'm trying to promote with my Bagua Combatives idea and it's nice to have fellow collaborators out there setting the example and pushing the message.

This is all good advice and I will keep it in mind when practicing. Thanks.

I'm looking forward to some constructive interaction towards your bagua combatives idea, with anything I can offer as a contribution.

Regards

Conn