Baji Pigua Clips from BajiNoob

[Bob]

Some very nice baji pigua clips from BajiNoob posted on the "other" site:

Students practicing Piqua form in Töölölahti park 25.8.2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPTinBROKM



Lü Baochun teaching movements from the Piqua form to students in Töölönlahti park Helsinki. 25.08.2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THI7zE6nqP0



Demonstrations at a Baji meeting in Tianjin. Local masters demonstrating Baji Forms, sword and a Xiao Jia form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRtvWg3YEsk



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8J-OLoU5bQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUVM79DrWa0
Demonstration at a Baji meeting in Tianjin. Paavo and Juuso doing Xiao Jia.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd92ryAvUVc
Demonstration at a Baji meeting in Tianjin. Students from Sweden and Finland perform the Big Form (Da jia).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-rayTBDByA



Oh and we visited Luotan village also, did and saw demonstrations there. Here is a part of the big form from Han family, performed by Han Zhendo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvSmue-p4gM

[BajiNooby]

I was going to post this here also, but i hadn't registered yet. Thanks for putting it up Bob .

I'm making a summer training montage video clip, should be released soon. So tune in for that, i'll be posting it here

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8J-OLoU5bQ

cool. thanks for posting.

[BajiNooby]

I really have to say that these New Baji guys in Tianjin impressed me alot more than i expected. Not really classical Baji, but they are good

[bailewen]

With no central authority defining it, and fairly different flavours between lines, I am curious.

How do you define "classical Baji"? What characteristics do you think of as "classical" in this context?

[BajiNooby]

With no central authority defining it, and fairly different flavours between lines, I am curious.

How do you define "classical Baji"? What characteristics do you think of as "classical" in this context?

Omar really put me on the spot here hehe. If people call this New Baji, then i call everything else classical Baji . Well these are of course all my own definitions and thoughts (at least a part of them, u have been pm´d). I see "classical" Baji as something like the Baji you see with Han, Huo and Li family lines.
In the lines of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnzOCpac7tI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvSmue-p4gM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1sjvVi2Zfo
Very clear, some might call "stiff" kind of movement. Maybe more emphasis on stomping step than grinding step. What i see in the old Baji family lines is the idea of a extremly strong kung fu, destroying people with one strike. People that learned from Zhang family (Han Huachen, Li Shuwen->Huo family) seemed to have this kind of movement quality in their lines. These guys were extremely powerful and their styles seem very simple and hard, pure Baji.

Wu Xiufeng was a great fighter with experience from many styles, he had his own little twist on Baji. What i see in his line is alot of more application oriented stuff, lot's of tactics and techniques that probably came from his personal experiences. Lot's of nice fighting stuff in that line. A bit more soft and coiling body movement, combining techniques smoothly.
This is stuff that i have observed and experienced, maybe a good start for some interesting discussion .

[bailewen]

Sorry to put you on the spot and thanks for the clips.

I understand where you are coming form better now. I haven't managed to watch the "new" Baji clips yet but I am familiar with the "classical" Baji that you posted. I particularly liked the "Big Form" clip. It's very close to what we do in Xi'an. Also, Shifu has often held out a meeting with Li Zhi-Cheng as a sort of long term reward at some point. It's not even a comment on the quality of his Baji. It's that he is the grandson of Li Shu-Wen so it would be a big honor to get introduced just from that standpoint alone.

In Xi'an we are in Li Shu-Wen's line. Technically, there are some differences in our Baji as well because of the Taiji influence but we still play it very fast, much faster than anyone in any of these clips. The only person I have seen so far who trains fast like we do is maybe Zhou Jingxuan who's Baji I like a lot.

Take care and thanks for qualifying that earlier statement.

[BajiNooby]

I think it's also very interesting how different the Wu Tan line from Liu Yun Chiao seems to be from other Li Shuwen lines. I think the Wu Tan people play more softly than for example Huo family and some other Li Shu Wen lines i've seen. So where did this change come from? Probably Liu Yun Chiaos personal preferences and experiences, but where did those come from? Have i heard correctly that Liu Yun Chiao was among the last of Li Shu Wens students? (maybe that could be a factor?)

[count]

I think it's also very interesting how different the Wu Tan line from Liu Yun Chiao seems to be from other Li Shuwen lines. I think the Wu Tan people play more softly than for example Huo family and some other Li Shu Wen lines i've seen. So where did this change come from? Probably Liu Yun Chiaos personal preferences and experiences, but where did those come from?

Piqua

[Bob]

The "softness" seen in Liu Yun Qiao's lines is not his personal preference. Liu lived with, traveled, and learned from Li Shu Wen for 10 years. These were the last 10 years of Li Shu Wen's life and they are the final changes, refinements, and flavor of Li Shu Wen's development.

Different styles

"BaJiQuan and PiGuaZhang originally belonged in the same family, and were both taught by WuZhong. However even in Cang county there were many different branches. For example in the area surrounding Meng village, the training emphasized more on BaJi and less on PiGua, but in areas surrounding LuoTong more PiGua was practiced and less on BaJi. According to Grandmaster Liu, BaJiQuan in the towns and cities were fancier, BaJiQuan in the villages and rural areas were simpler and more effecient. In his youth, there were many people who reached fame through the practice of BaJiQuan. Aside from LiShuWen, there were also ChuiChangYou, DongYiWen, LiYanTian, HuoDianGe, as well as HuoDianGe's students such as ZhangLianJiu, GaoXiangTian, LiuZiMing, HuoQingYun, BianTingJie, ZhangKuiWen, GuanJunWen, WangMa, HuoLianMing, LiuQingTian, LiuWeiZhen, BianTingBin, LianXiang, LiuJunLi, LiDaLin(GongHuan). After HuoDianGe went to DongBei, LiYanTian became the instructor for Huo's students.

After LiShuWen accepted his last student grandmaster Liu, he didn't fight with other as much, and instead focused his energy on teaching. During this period LiShuWen took the experiences he had gather through fighting and practicing during his life, gradually digested them and recombined them to a new level. In his later years Li had many unique insights and changes to BaJi and PiGua. And grandmaster Liu was the only person who had witnessed these changes in their entirety. When grandmaster Liu was in the Yi, Nu area visiting friends, he had met Li's earlier students. These elder brothers were all amazed at grandmaster Liu's BaJiQuan. Whether it was style, power and technique, his BaJiQuan was more refined than Li's BaJi in the early years.

Nowadays, aside from the local BaJiQuan in Cang county, in the north east there is HuoDianGe's system, in the north west there is system taught by MaFengTu, and in Taiwan there is grandmaster Liu's system of BaJiQuan. Grandmaster Liu's students also are teaching in United States, Canada, Spain, Venezuela, Malaysia, etc. As China mainland have opened to foreign trade, mainland BaJiQuan have also spread east to Korea, Japan and well as United States."

James Guo
http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=baji

[Bob]

Here is an example of Tony Yang's disciple, Jim Finley, who exemplifies the flavor of what Tony has taught. I've known Jim for over 21 years, as a close friend, and for 9 solid years all he practiced was xiao baji jia, the da qiang, and a bit of pigua. No bagua, no taiji---although he did some praying mantis forms. His regiment was an almost daily practice of baji and the da qiang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6GtPWhHZM



You could argue ultimate refinement or reverse the argument and say that what you see in Li Shu Wen's early life was his "killing" flavor.

Either way it seems that baji served its purpose well over the lifetimes of its practitioners.

IMO,in the end, the differences amount to one's personal preferences and nothing more

Interestingly there is an account of Li Shu Wen, Zhang Xiang Wu, Gong Bao Tian, and Liu Yun Qiao meeting together at the invitation of six harmony mantis master Ding ZiCheng's school in Shandong province. I had always thought that Li Shu Wen was unaware of Liu Yun Qiao's relationship with both Gong Bao Tian and Ding ZiCheng and wonder if Li Shu Wen, in his latter years incorporated insights from both bagua and six harmony mantis---pure speculative and no one knows much about this.

[Bob]

Here is the piece I was referring to:

"In 1928 Ding Zi Cheng, under the guidance of the Health Institution of Huang County Education Department, expanded his Martial Arts Research Organization into "The Martial Arts Research Association of Huang County". It was located in two rooms around the main building of the Confucius Temple. In addition to their regular martial arts classes, the members of the association gave free Chinese boxing lessons in the schools around Huang county as a part of a charity program.

Master Ding Zi Cheng invited many famous Chinese boxing masters to teach in the association. The most well known were Master of Ba Ji Quan (Eight Ultimates Boxing) Li Shu Wen "The Magic Spear" from the famous martial arts center of Cang Zhou, Master of Eight Trigrams Boxing (Ba Gua Zhang) Gong Bao Tian from Yan Tai city and the vice-president of the Central Martial Arts School of China (Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan), Master Zhang Xiang Wu."

Biography of the Great Grand Master of Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing Ding Zi Cheng (1851 -194?) (Translated and compiled by Ilya Profatilov, based on memoirs written by Master Ding Zi Cheng's best disciples Grand Master Chen Yun Tao (Wan Qian), Grand Master Shan Xiang Ling, Grand Master Zhang Xiang San (Xi Yi), Grand Master Liu Yun Qiao and his relative Ding Er Yü.

During the second half of the nineteenth century, martial arts were primarily popular among the members of wealthy clans in China. Ding Zi Cheng came from one of these clans. The clan name of Ding Zi Cheng was Er Pu and he was the third son in the family. His clan was well known and respected in the Huang county of Shandong province and his family lived on the North street in the small town called Huang Xian (modern Long Kou Shi). Later in life everybody in town called him Ding Lao Shi or Master Ding, but did not use his first name.
When Ding Zi Cheng was a child he received a good classical education in the best Confucian tradition at the school supported by private means. However young Ding was not fond of reading and memorizing ancient classical books and taking government exams in order to pursue a career of an official.

Therefore, Ding Zi Cheng did not continue his literary education and started learning martial arts. The first boxing style he was exposed to was his family style called " Boxing of the Three Tongs " (San Tong Quan). The so called "Three Tongs" were famous martial artists at that time: Master Ding Jie Tong of Huang county, a relative of Ding Zi Cheng, Master Song Yong Tong from Lai Yang city and Master Chuan Er Tong of Zhao Yuan county. These three masters created a new boxing style, named after them, which was a quite famous and a wide spread style in Shandong province. After learning completely the "Three Tongs" boxing style, Ding Zi Cheng learned Luo Han Quan - "The Boxing of the Arhats" (Arhat is a Buddhist saint on his way to become Bodhisattva or Buddha). Then Ding Zi Cheng learned a hard qi gong of the Iron Sand Palm (Tie Sha Zhang Ying Gong).

It is known that the Ding Family clan business was a network of pawn shops which were scattered all over Shandong province. Once, Ding Zi Cheng's father Ding Yue Lai invited the famous Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing master, Lin Shi Chun of Zhao Yuan county, Shandong province to come and to teach martial arts to the pawn shop guards. Ding Zi Cheng was astonished by the great skill of Master Lin Shi Chun and together with his younger brother, Ding Huan Qing, became disciples of Lin Shi Chun. Primarily, because Ding Zi Cheng already had the knowledge and experience of different styles of Chinese boxing and because of his personal talents, through dedication and determination to martial arts training, he was able to learn not just the entire system of Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing, but become the best disciple of Lin Shi Chun. Ding Zi Cheng, soon, reached the highest level of understanding of the theory, practice, strategy and concept of the style and openly started teaching Six Harmonies Praying Mantis.

It is a well known fact that the majority of the traditional martial artists criticized and were very conservative towards other schools of the Chinese boxing, and considered their own styles superior and more sophisticated. However Master Ding Zi Cheng overcame such traditional, conservative attitudes and never criticized or tried to defame other schools. Ding Zi Cheng always tried to absorb the quintessence of different boxing styles, their best techniques and always had a deep and sincere respect for other kungfu masters.

It is known that when one of his younger brothers Ding Er Shou studied traditional Chinese medicine in Beijing, he also learned the art of Tai Ji Quan and evidentialy was very good with the Tai Ji sword. Once when Ding Er Shou returned home to see his relatives, he performed Tai Ji sword in front of his older brother. It was more than enough for Ding Zi Cheng to see these sword techniques once to be able to know and analyze all the best and essential parts of it.

Another time there was a man named Lu Ke You who was a friend of another of Ding Zi Cheng's (younger) brothers, Ding Er Yü. Once Lü Ke You came to visit Master Ding. At first they talked about theory and practice of the Chinese boxing and then Lu Ke You performed Xing Yi Quan (Form and Will Boxing) routine and also Xing Yi sword. Ding Zi Cheng, who had never seen Xing Yi Quan, praised Lü Ke You a lot and then explained the meanings of the movements and how to use them. Lü Ke You was deeply impressed by Ding Zi Cheng's talent and ability to see a form just once and then to know how to use its techniques without actually learning the style. As it was already mentioned above, Ding Zi Cheng had incredible skills in the Hard Qigong technique called the Iron Sand palm. Because of his fame in this, skill people used to call him "The Iron Forearms Ding". Many famous martial artists visited him and saw him break rocks with his fist, which resembled an iron ball. Ding clan's network of pawn shops, which were all around Shandong province, was required to have squad of bodyguards in each shop. Master Ding interviewed each applicant for the pawn shop guard job. If one was particularly good, Master Ding would hire him and would try to get as much martial arts knowledge from this guard as possible. Therefore, Ding Zi Cheng exchanged martial arts experiences with different Chinese boxing masters who were hired to teach martial arts to pawn shop guards.

Ding Zi Cheng was a very wealthy man and also was known as Ding Bai Wan or Ding "The Millionaire". Nevertheless he was a very kind and generous man. Once Ding Zi Cheng together with the famous Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Master Wang Ji Chen, who was a kungfu brother (shi xiong) of Master Ding Zi Cheng, travelled to Yan Tai city. Because of the great distance they were forced to travel by of donkeys, a common method in those days. When they reached the nearest relay station they found out that there was only one donkey left that they could rent. Therefore they ended up switching off one donkey in order to continue their trip. In the middle of the trip, when Master Ding was walking beside the donkey and Master Wang was riding it, the pitiful animal injured its leg and could not move any farther. The owner of the donkey, a poor man, had only this animal to count on in order to support his family of eight people, so he sat down on the ground and started crying. Master Ding Zi Cheng immediately decided to continue the trip without the donkey and generously gave fifteen silver yuan (the money used back in those days) which were equal to the price of a new donkey. The poor man walked away happily.

In 1926 Master Ding Zi Cheng, inspired by the people of his town, established "The Martial Arts Research Organization of Huang County" (Huang Xian Guo Shu Yan Jiu Suo). The Organization was situated in the North-eastern part of town in the park that belonged to the Ding family clan. The students and disciples, whom Master Ding taught there were his friends, relatives, children of merchants and officials etc.

One of Ding Zi Cheng's disciples Zhang Xi Yi (Xiang San) describes the teaching process as following: "Before teaching a certain form of Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing, Master Ding would teach the single techniques extracted from this form. At first, Ding Zi Cheng would explain how to use these techniques and how to combine them with other techniques. Then, he would make his students practice these movements until they were perfected and only then would Master Ding teach the whole form. Ding Zi Cheng used to treat his disciples and students as his own children".

Another Ding Zi Cheng disciple, Liu Yun Qiao, in private talks with his disciple Guo Xiao Po (James Guo), he described the schedule of Master Ding Zi Cheng's one day training session as following: "Most of the young disciples would get together between 8:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. and start their practice. The typical daily routine was: warm-ups with basic stretching, kicking and punching. It would be followed by reviewing the forms. The Liu He Praying Mantis form practice was also considered as a part of the warm-up process. After that, each disciple would practice different fighting techniques and drills. In the afternoon, they would spar using specific techniques to verify whether they worked or not. Then, they would perform body and arm conditioning exercises, such as the Iron Sand Palm, Iron Forearm, Sand Bag, etc. Master Ding would often check individual pupils' techniques in the evening. He would either correct and then explain the individual's mistakes, or teach a new part of a given form."

In 1928 Ding Zi Cheng, under the guidance of the Health Institution of Huang County Education Department, expanded his Martial Arts Research Organization into "The Martial Arts Research Association of Huang County". It was located in two rooms around the main building of the Confucius Temple. In addition to their regular martial arts classes, the members of the association gave free Chinese boxing lessons in the schools around Huang county as a part of a charity program.

Master Ding Zi Cheng invited many famous Chinese boxing masters to teach in the association. The most well known were Master of Ba Ji Quan (Eight Ultimates Boxing) Li Shu Wen "The Magic Spear" from the famous martial arts center of Cang Zhou, Master of Eight Trigrams Boxing (Ba Gua Zhang) Gong Bao Tian from Yan Tai city and the vice-president of the Central Martial Arts School of China (Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan), Master Zhang Xiang Wu.

During the first years of the Republic after the Xin Hai revolution, there was a devastating earthquake in Huang county. Sand was flew in the air, rocks moved, and the sound was like the mighty thunder. Ninety percent of all buildings in the county were destroyed, there were uncountable numbers of victims who died during the catastrophe. The house where master Ding Zi Cheng lived, was completely destroyed and everybody in the house was buried under a huge pile of bricks, tiles and logs. Nobody survived. The rescue team knew that Ding Zi Cheng must also be buried under the ruins of the house. They started digging and suddenly discovered Ding Zi Cheng still alive, lying curled up under the ruins of the main room and holding with both hands a huge horizontal beam of the house. Master Ding, mainly because of his strong will, mighty strength and the Hard Qigong skills, survived the catastrophe. However, as a result of the earthquake his ear drums were broken and he became completely deaf. It is known that later in life Master Ding stopped teaching classes himself. All his classes were taught by his head disciple (Da Shi Xiong), Master Zhao Qian Yi, while Master Ding would sit and observe the class, periodically guiding students and making comments. Because of the deafness, Master Ding developed extraordinary sensitivity and attentiveness. If somebody standing three feet away from him, almost out of Master Ding's sight, and made a sudden move, Master Ding would immediately notice that motion and if necessary, execute a defensive technique.

His younger brother remembered that if one would come into a contact with his arms, then that person would be immediately out of balance by the slightest move by Master Ding. One of Ding Zi Cheng's best disciples, Master Chen Yun Tao remembered that once he had questioned Ding Zi Cheng about the so-called "Cun Jing" (one inch special strength), and was asked by Ding to kick his abdomen. At first master Chen did not want to do it, because of respect towards his teacher, but Ding Zi Cheng insisted. Chen Yun Tao kicked Ding's abdomen as hard as he could, but felt that some mighty force threw him backwards on to his back. The feeling was like kicking a big firm leather ball. That was the skill of defending against straight forward kicks without using hands or legs, but by executing the "Cun Jing" of the body, which is frequently used in Praying Mantis Boxing.

Master Ding Zi Cheng, in his late years, looked like a monk cultivating the Path of Buddha, with long ears (which in China are a sign of wisdom; all images of Buddha or Saints have long ears), no hearing and kind eyes. Master Ding Zi Cheng always taught four moral principles to his disciples: 1) Do not create troubles; 2) Do not avoid troubles; 3) Do not cheat people or take advantage of them; 4) Do not yield to others. However, Master Ding himself was always ready to help people with their problems and sometimes yielded to people. He was never irritated, angry, frustrated or spoke with a loud voice. He dedicated his entire life to martial arts research and to the improvement of Six Harmonies Praying Mantis Boxing techniques. There were rumors that before his death, Master Ding Zi Cheng became a hermit and went to a mountain retreat where he spent the rest of his great and outstanding life.


http://www.prayingmantisboxing.com/six.html

[BajiNooby]

Thanks for all the interesting reading Bob! I really like the Liu Yun Chiao branch of Baji, i think i'm more into this softer kind of stuff . Our Baji from Lü Baochun is also a bit softer, if compared to other "classical" (i'm going to start using this term ) lines. That is his expression of Baji.

[BajiNooby]

Hey! A training montage clip of our summer training in 2009: