Barlow Xingyi and a question

[GrahamB]

Alex - just a thought - but I think a lot of your assumptions about XingYi (and please don't take that the wrong way, I'm not meaning it in a derogatory way) - are applied to barehand fisticuffs. If you were fighting somebody skilled with a knife, and you had a knife too, then would you still want to "get close in and not get back out until the job was done"?

Now if you make the weapon bigger... say a spear... how close are you going to get if you both have spears? Would you want to?

Where does XingYi come from historically? Spear, no?

Just a thought.

I'm not saying there is only one 'right answer' to anything. Martial arts are big enough to hold many different world views, but to understand where somebody else is coming from, often you have to walk a mile in their shoes first.

[yusuf]

hi

i also have a question about distances,is it easier to train a body method that just allows one to issue power, without worrying about if it is an arm, leg or head ..or how far it is from the opponent?

thanks in advance


yusuf

[GrahamB]

Deleted.

[alexsuffolk]

hi Graham, thanks for you reply. Yes i agree all our perspectives are valid.... it is what makes us 'us' after all.

However the quote was - 'Move in, stick close to whatever he stops you with, dont go back out until the work is done...'

not - "get close in and not get back out until the job was done"?

That detail makes a huge difference, as so many details do.

However you may well be right, i regularly feel dismayed at my lack of understanding of these ancient arts.

Alex

[GrahamB]

Deleted.

[Wanderingdragon]

Thanks fellas, I wasn't going to argue the point as everyone has the right to opinion .

I disagree. In xing yi the aim is to be sensitive to the opponent's xin (spirit) and yi (intention) you do not have to be in contact to feel or distinguish this. In fact if ou are in contact it just gives the other guy something to feel or listen to. If I'm doing some training wiht a tai chi guy who is good at ting (listening) with touch then i don't want to give him anything I stay out of contact and try to hit him cleanly without being blocked or pushed etc. If he makes contact I immediately change my intent so some other movement to break contact and strike. I'd say in tai chi master contact, in xing yi master non-contact.

This is Xing I in the western mind, All I would say is true Xing I is like a boulder rolling down the side of a hill, if you are holding it in place and you give it an inch it will take the inch ... with great force, the difference is, our force is lead by will so if you think you can move out of the way we will follow , if you break contact it is a message as to your intent, we will follow, Xing I does not stop until it is at the next challenge. We are not snipers but we prefer "One Shot One Kill", Xing I is born of the battle field where there is no time to break off and regroup, you must go through your opponent or he will go through you.

[Felipe Bidó]

It is good to remember that, although XY came from spear fighting, it was modified to be suited to empty hand fighting. So, some methods and strategies were modified; especially in Xingyiquan, where the strategies got more and more complex, as seen in the mixed forms (see, I said 'strategies got more complex', before someone jumps and says "so you're saying that XYQ is more advanced than XYLHQ, blabla?"

A long time ago someone told me that the move "Dragon and Tiger Meeting" wasn't real Xingyi, because you couldn't use that in a battlefield...well, it's there. Or the guy that said that the steel whip used by a XY lineage didn't have a place in XY because "you can't swing a whip in the battlefield"..Zhang Zhaodong's "Red Cross" would disagree.

So you could say it's a mix. Weapon methods plus solutions to the strategic changes that come in a barehanded confrontation.

[Josealb]

I just want to say, that ive read some very interesting stuff here.

Also, Graham, think a bit when you talk about weapon based arts and spear origins and so on and so forth. These arts evolved far beyond that point since then, and trying to de-evolve generations of development might sound romantic and purifying, but, can well be counterproductive to a point.

Theres an incredibly detailed, profound and subtle world within "Bare-hand fisticuffs". After all, its our world, isnt it?

[Wanderingdragon]

Theres an incredibly detailed, profound and subtle world within "Bare-hand fisticuffs". After all, its our world, isnt it?

It is the mind of man

[yusuf]

I don;t like to agree with Graham on general principle :0 but I met a Hui chap who did Xing Yi (not XYLH). His system was based on the concept that the opponent should always feel as if he had run onto a spear, which then was issuing some sort of secondary power.

It certainly felt like that...

[eastpaw]

Interesting responses, gentlemen. It's always nice to hear different perspectives on things and use these answers to question our own understandings.

[GrahamB]

Edited out because of idiots.

[GrahamB]

I don;t like to agree with Graham on general principle :0

Quite right too,

[Pandrews1982]

deleted

[Josealb]

Opponent tries to Beng you with his spear, but you manage to grab it (that's what the hand position is for - it's grabbing their spear, not punching them), then you use that kick to kick him back off his own spear, so you are left holding the spear and he... isn't.

you guys have a different way to do it, that might be more modified for barehand fighting.

your goal is to learn something to 'get you home safe at night' then it makes sense to modify it more towards "fisticuffs".

Jesus Graham. I had it wrong in the past...you really dont need any help from anyone to look like a dunce. Its for when you loose your spear? to grab the opponents spear? to "hop" forward on one leg to hit the guy? Even Paul couldnt help but joke about it.

You know...these arts are like zip files. Everything's encrypted inside, and nothing is obvious, so when people saw you practicing they would never get how to apply it and use it. Taiji is the epitome of this. But you...damn....you're the guy old folks in the past would laugh and say "that guy...he really thinks this shit is applied the same way it looks".

Think outside off the battlefield bubble you're in for a sec...and dont just think punch and kick. Look at the back hand. Look at the opposing forces of the body. Leave the spear in the rack because, G, you're gonna get shish kebabed.

Stop thinking everyone is just modified fisticuffs and low level brawling and you're the one with the goods. Dont just say "everyone has the new modified stuff for civilian life and im the orthodox badass". Ive never understood how you just brush off every critique and everyone who says your stuff looks odd, and just shrug at the fact that 99% of the xingyi out there is different from yours, not in shape, but in method. I just dont get it. I used to think your teacher has something to do with it. But now im thinking its you.

I tried man, i tried.



oh and Paul....

Why continue with an attack which will fail, you change the intent so that you do another attack, keep doing so until you succeed.

Dude, im sorry, but you just pulled "A Graham". That is just a poor way of using intent. There should be only one Yi.