Sambo vs. BJJ

[grzegorz]

As good as those guys are I still think Fedor is the best in the world.

How many people have gotten passed the first round with Fedor?

[Kurt Robbins]

Sambo really has a unique flow from throwing to submissions that really puts it apart from other systems. Judo puts more emphasis on throwing than newaza and BJJ has more emphasis on newaza to throwing and wrestling doesn't really have submissions. I think Sambo has been in the submission grappling frame of mind for a lot longer than most systems. Volk Han is a good example.

[Butterball]

My second comment that "a lot of BJJ guys are too complacent on their backs", I meant more in the MMA environment. I value top control and striking from the top, like Frank Mir against Brock Lesnar as an example; the complacency to sit there and to not scramble is disadvantagous in MMA. In grappling tournaments, that's a different story, pulling guard and attacking from the guard are very effective.
I just wanted to clear that up.

A little tangent but I think this is why in MMA things are tending to more wrestling and other forms of standup grappling. GNP from wrestlers has often neutralized BJJ except in cases where there is an elite BJJ'er against someone with no wrestling. However even Demian Maia, probably the most successful BJJ purist in the current game, has now been handed defeat by KO - before any grappling could take place. MMA is going back to the future. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida also clearly demonstrate where standup wrestling is simply not good enough when they can dictate things stay at striking range. I like learning BJJ but I'd say it is now incredibly insufficient in MMA compared to early days when it was completely dominant. The future MMA fighter has elite kickboxing plus sanshou type throws (immediate takedown within 2 seconds or disengage - Machida and Cung Le exemplify this approach already - as the youngest UFC recruit ever, Jon Jones also shows this is the future way) and great ground skills only as a contingency. This approach is even better than Fedor's sambo approach (GNP against almost everyone, submissions against weaker grapplers, not the best technical kickboxing but way better mental poise and power - how he beat Arlovski) imho. An approach like Machida's - blackbelt in bjj, able to submit Rafael Lovato, Jr. in pure grappling, but rarely used in MMA - seems like the trend. Self defense may be different because from the guard you can kick the back, strike the back of the head/neck, etc. It's difficult to imagine fighters will be better than Machida or Anderson Silva but it'll probably happen in their mold then go beyond that.

I partially agree... I think it's necessary to be well rounded for mma, but I don't think that bjj is as unimportant as it seems. It's worth noting that four out of five UFC champs are bjj blackbelts (not easy to acheive, why waste the effort getting to that level if it's not neccesary to compete at a high level?). If you look outside of the UFC, it's worth looking at jacare souza, shiny aoki, etc...for evidence of bjj skills in action. As far as Machida and Silva go, the only times I've seen either in any kind of trouble in mma was from grappling/bjj technique (machida almost getting triangled by ortiz, silva getting repeatedly taken down and out grappled by Travis lutter until lutter got caught in a triangle and elbowed, also not forgetting the Japanese fighter whose name escapes me that heel hooked silva). Damian Maia was undefeated for 11 fights prior to getting knocked out. He got knocked out, by the way, because he threw the same sloppy kick three times in a row against a better striker.

I have to head to work will write more later

[everything]

As good as those guys are I still think Fedor is the best in the world.

How many people have gotten passed the first round with Fedor?

Fedor is for sure one of a kind. After 15 more fights from Machida, we may be able to compare them better.

[everything]

My second comment that "a lot of BJJ guys are too complacent on their backs", I meant more in the MMA environment. I value top control and striking from the top, like Frank Mir against Brock Lesnar as an example; the complacency to sit there and to not scramble is disadvantagous in MMA. In grappling tournaments, that's a different story, pulling guard and attacking from the guard are very effective.
I just wanted to clear that up.

A little tangent but I think this is why in MMA things are tending to more wrestling and other forms of standup grappling. GNP from wrestlers has often neutralized BJJ except in cases where there is an elite BJJ'er against someone with no wrestling. However even Demian Maia, probably the most successful BJJ purist in the current game, has now been handed defeat by KO - before any grappling could take place. MMA is going back to the future. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida also clearly demonstrate where standup wrestling is simply not good enough when they can dictate things stay at striking range. I like learning BJJ but I'd say it is now incredibly insufficient in MMA compared to early days when it was completely dominant. The future MMA fighter has elite kickboxing plus sanshou type throws (immediate takedown within 2 seconds or disengage - Machida and Cung Le exemplify this approach already - as the youngest UFC recruit ever, Jon Jones also shows this is the future way) and great ground skills only as a contingency. This approach is even better than Fedor's sambo approach (GNP against almost everyone, submissions against weaker grapplers, not the best technical kickboxing but way better mental poise and power - how he beat Arlovski) imho. An approach like Machida's - blackbelt in bjj, able to submit Rafael Lovato, Jr. in pure grappling, but rarely used in MMA - seems like the trend. Self defense may be different because from the guard you can kick the back, strike the back of the head/neck, etc. It's difficult to imagine fighters will be better than Machida or Anderson Silva but it'll probably happen in their mold then go beyond that.

I partially agree... I think it's necessary to be well rounded for mma, but I don't think that bjj is as unimportant as it seems. It's worth noting that four out of five UFC champs are bjj blackbelts (not easy to acheive, why waste the effort getting to that level if it's not neccesary to compete at a high level?). If you look outside of the UFC, it's worth looking at jacare souza, shiny aoki, etc...for evidence of bjj skills in action. As far as Machida and Silva go, the only times I've seen either in any kind of trouble in mma was from grappling/bjj technique (machida almost getting triangled by ortiz, silva getting repeatedly taken down and out grappled by Travis lutter until lutter got caught in a triangle and elbowed, also not forgetting the Japanese fighter whose name escapes me that heel hooked silva). Damian Maia was undefeated for 11 fights prior to getting knocked out. He got knocked out, by the way, because he threw the same sloppy kick three times in a row against a better striker.

I have to head to work will write more later

cool man, I think our views differ by degrees. Maia has used almost exclusively bjj (has he ever actually struck anyone?), much like Royce in the early days. Very cool, but I just think the champs mostly know bjj to be well rounded, not as their primary game like with Maia. GSP mostly follows wrestling to gnp tactics. BJ Penn doesn't really use his world-class bjj, relying more on boxing. Silva primarily works his muay thai but his sub against Lutter was great - still, I'd say that wasn't his overall gameplan, just a good thing he is sickly good at everything and had an answer to the bad scenario. Maybe there is the FON and KO bonuses at work, too. US audiences prefer standup matches.

Anyway slightly back on topic, if the sambo integration of throws to groundwork is better, it shouldn't be too hard to at least try to go that direction from judo or bjj. Does sambo give more points to throws than bjj? Its points for pins seems a hybrid of judo pin points and bjj points for positioning.

[yusuf]

Fedor has a lot of genetic advantages as well.. but he trains in a very interesting way.. his shadow boxing and sparring look like pitter patter, his bag work is pretty weak..however his sledgehammer and power training look like a polar bear smashing on baby seals (not teh US NAvy variety).. and that is the way he fights..

amazing ..

yusuf

ps
on gi vs no gi here is an Indian wrestling vid.. noticve how they use the underpants to pull and lever the opponent..

[everything]

his sledgehammer and power training look like a polar bear smashing on baby seals (not teh US NAvy variety).. and that is the way he fights..

lol, that is such a great line, and so true.