Sambo vs. BJJ

[Butterball]

This is not to say that I dislike boxing or SC or any other combat sport, but the point is that it's useless to pick on BJJ when it's just as easy to complain about the rules in other sports.

[Butterball]

It doesn't make any sense to me that people complain about how BJJ doesn't do this or BJJ doesn't do that. Maybe in 1995 Bjj guys all had crappy takedowns and had less aptitude for footlocks or whatever (or maybe not), but there is so much cross training going on in most major schools that it is useless to generalize like that anymore. The reason? Because Bjj guys compete in Grappling tournaments and MMA events on a regular basis. In competition, if a weakness is exposed, then you either correct it or you start to lose your matches or fights. If you are a Bjj guy who is losing matches because you have crappy takedowns, then you improve your takedowns, simple as that. You take wrestling or Judo classes to help your stand up game because that's who specializes in that area. If you are a Judo guy who is losing grappling matches to "guard pulling Bjj guys", then learn how to pass guard or footlock the hell out of them. The most admired and "best" Bjj competitors in Bjj competition and MMA work hard to become well rounded.

Some of the BJJ guys in that video actually have ok takedowns. They are competing with mostly Sambo rules against Sambo players , of course you are going to see the Bjj guys either get thrown or pull guard. Those Sambo guys are better at throws. It doesn't mean that Bjj guys don't have any throwing ability or takedown skills at all, it just means that it's a stupid strategy for a Bjj guy to try and throw a Sambo guy in a Sambo tournament. There are just as many boring matches at Bjj tournaments or Submission grappling tournaments where two guys spend the whole match negotiating for grips or faking each other out going for takedowns without really committing to any of them.

I hope that makes sense, I'm pretty tired, lol.

[Kurt Robbins]

Just to make sure my points of view were not taken out of context, I will clarify my statements.

"A lot of BJJ guys neglect their throws." BJJ has great takedowns, but often do not teach them. I know of three BJJ schools that don't teach throws or takedowns (or even leg attacks) until the student reaches the purple belt level, for which in a good BJJ school can be up to 5 years. So in that case I place the blame on the currculim of the school and less on the student. My point is not that BJJ doesn't possess a lethal amount of great takedowns, but that they take a backseat to the ground game.
My second comment that "a lot of BJJ guys are too complacent on their backs", I meant more in the MMA environment. I value top control and striking from the top, like Frank Mir against Brock Lesnar as an example; the complacency to sit there and to not scramble is disadvantagous in MMA. In grappling tournaments, that's a different story, pulling guard and attacking from the guard are very effective.
I just wanted to clear that up.

[emre]

I think if it's illegal to slam a guy who pulls guard on someone standing up, it should be illegal to pull guard on someone standing up. It makes the matches really lame when the BJJ guys can just hang onto someone and wear him out and the guy has to play into his game or be disqualified.

[Butterball]

I think if it's illegal to slam a guy who pulls guard on someone standing up, it should be illegal to pull guard on someone standing up. It makes the matches really lame when the BJJ guys can just hang onto someone and wear him out and the guy has to play into his game or be disqualified.

That's something I agree with. I think in Bjj competition, there should be a three second allowance for someone standing in someones guard. If you jump guard, I think that you should have seconds to bring them down or sweep and the same if they stand. I don't think slams should be allowed, but I think this rule would get the point across well enough.

[Butterball]

Just to make sure my points of view were not taken out of context, I will clarify my statements.

"A lot of BJJ guys neglect their throws." BJJ has great takedowns, but often do not teach them. I know of three BJJ schools that don't teach throws or takedowns (or even leg attacks) until the student reaches the purple belt level, for which in a good BJJ school can be up to 5 years. So in that case I place the blame on the currculim of the school and less on the student. My point is not that BJJ doesn't possess a lethal amount of great takedowns, but that they take a backseat to the ground game.
My second comment that "a lot of BJJ guys are too complacent on their backs", I meant more in the MMA environment. I value top control and striking from the top, like Frank Mir against Brock Lesnar as an example; the complacency to sit there and to not scramble is disadvantagous in MMA. In grappling tournaments, that's a different story, pulling guard and attacking from the guard are very effective.
I just wanted to clear that up.

Hi Kurt,

I agree that some Bjj guys rely too much on their guard in an MMA context. I'm far from an expert, but I feel like the guard should be a relative last resort in MMA and used aggressively to defend, sweep or sub the guy on top. I think that's part of why more and more Bjj guys who get into MMA are working with wrestlers; to improve their scrambling skills and takedowns to make their chances of being on top better. Damian Maia is a good example of this. Someone with a great guard/half guard who, while he does pull guard off of his shots in fights is very very good with defense and sweeps from there to get into dominant positions.

If you get the chance, check out Phil Cardellas MMA fights if you can find any anywhere online. He's got a really good Bjj guard for MMA. He's a black belt under Relson Gracie and learned alot of great defensive guard skills from him.

I feel like some of this discussion deals with the difference between Gracie jiujitsu (self defense style) vs. Sport Bjj stuff, but I think I'm too drunk to articulately speculate on the matter further. haha.

[Kurt Robbins]

I will be entering the same state. I did not get my fight and plan on drowning my sorrows.
I just want to clarify that grappling tournaments like the one in the video and MMA events involve very different game plans, and those were my observations just based on personal experiance during my transition to an MMA/Pankration event.
I love BJJ and my comments don't take anything away from it's value.

[Butterball]

Gotcha. Sorry to hear you didn't get your fight! What kind of fight was it, if you don't mind my asking? I'm interested in your thoughts on the Pankration stuff actually as I've been sort of fascinated by that lately. Is that run in a tournament format, or is it individual match ups?

[Butterball]

Also, I get a little nuts about Bjj stuff, so hopefully I didn't rant too much and I apologize if I took stuff out of context.

[Kurt Robbins]

I didn't really clarify. I loved Pankration and I get to train it often, but it is so hard to find events in the south west. I think there are some great events on your side of the country. I am pretty sure the format is the same as a grappling tournament.
It was a kick boxing fight.

[grzegorz]

I think in the end what it comes down to is that specializing in one thing is a double edged sword.

If you do just BJJ for a number of years you'll have a badass ground game, but unless you train in something else as well that's all you'll have.

It's tough, lately I've been focussing most of my time on BJJ & Judo and I'm getting a lot stronger in those areas but it doesn't leave me with a lot of time to work on my striking. I guess that's just the way it goes.

Props to the BJJ players for playing by sambo rules. It's frustrating to take someone's back only to have the ref stand you back up.

[Kurt Robbins]

Gotta remember Pro fighters train in the place of a full time job.
I often find it very hard to keep up with the pro's at my gym and I often don't.

[grzegorz]

Gotta remember Pro fighters train in the place of a full time job.
I often find it very hard to keep up with the pro's at my gym and I often don't.

Good point.

[Butterball]

On a related note, I think Steve Koepfer (sambosteve on most mma forums) has a team of his Sambo guys competing in a Team vs. Team challenge at Grapplers Quest in Lancaster, PA in two weeks. It's going to be no gi and will definitely be cool to see his guys compete against Bjj guys and Wrestlers. I know that some of his guys are really good, so hopefully I'll get to see this. Grapplers Quest does a great job of getting video out there quickly after the events, so hopefully that will be available.

[everything]

My second comment that "a lot of BJJ guys are too complacent on their backs", I meant more in the MMA environment. I value top control and striking from the top, like Frank Mir against Brock Lesnar as an example; the complacency to sit there and to not scramble is disadvantagous in MMA. In grappling tournaments, that's a different story, pulling guard and attacking from the guard are very effective.
I just wanted to clear that up.

A little tangent but I think this is why in MMA things are tending to more wrestling and other forms of standup grappling. GNP from wrestlers has often neutralized BJJ except in cases where there is an elite BJJ'er against someone with no wrestling. However even Demian Maia, probably the most successful BJJ purist in the current game, has now been handed defeat by KO - before any grappling could take place. MMA is going back to the future. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida also clearly demonstrate where standup wrestling is simply not good enough when they can dictate things stay at striking range. I like learning BJJ but I'd say it is now incredibly insufficient in MMA compared to early days when it was completely dominant. The future MMA fighter has elite kickboxing plus sanshou type throws (immediate takedown within 2 seconds or disengage - Machida and Cung Le exemplify this approach already - as the youngest UFC recruit ever, Jon Jones also shows this is the future way) and great ground skills only as a contingency. This approach is even better than Fedor's sambo approach (GNP against almost everyone, submissions against weaker grapplers, not the best technical kickboxing but way better mental poise and power - how he beat Arlovski) imho. An approach like Machida's - blackbelt in bjj, able to submit Rafael Lovato, Jr. in pure grappling, but rarely used in MMA - seems like the trend. Self defense may be different because from the guard you can kick the back, strike the back of the head/neck, etc. It's difficult to imagine fighters will be better than Machida or Anderson Silva but it'll probably happen in their mold then go beyond that.