Karate is Internal Too!

[Dr.Rob]

Very high level to say the least. Intresting to see some of the comparisions to Eating Crane and Ngo Cho. Very perfectly done. great find.

[Andy_S]

Doc:

Your perceptions are exactly that - your perceptions. By "your man" I was implying that the clip you posted, of your teacher/previous teacher.

I made no comment on Yamashita's skills which I am sure are impressive (I liked his apps);
I was merely observing that the body skills of the first master you posted above are unorthodox in Shorin-Ryu karate terms, for reasons given. (Reasons which you have thus far not addressed.) Does Yamashita possess unorthodox skills, or high- levels of orthodox skill? I have no idea,and, as previously noted, the clip you posted does not make it easy to compare.

That having been said:
RE comparison of skills: I am not saying A is BETTER than B, I am saying A is DIFFERENT to B. Ergo a comparison would be apples vs oranges.

Even so: Personally, I very much prefer this unorthodox master's presentation of Shorin karate to that, of, say Nagamine: A body wave is clearly visible, his dantien is highly mobile, etc. However, the comments on his performance by other karate practitioners on YouTube make clear their unfamiliarity with, and in some cases, dismissiveness toward, his method of movement.

[Doc Stier]

Andy:

I did address the issues you raised, but you either didn't read my reply, or simply disagree. It's OK. We're cool!

Both Masters, Nagamine and Yamashita, express physical skills which use body mechanics that probably appear unorthodox by comparison to typical demonstrations of the Shorin-ryu styles. However, it has been my personal observation in learning and practicing Shorin-ryu that other Masters possess similar methods of using the body, but either haven't developed such methods to a level of proficiency that is comparable to Nagamine and Yamashita, or for reasons known only to themselves, choose not to demonstrate such skill levels in public demonstrations, especially when being filmed or taped.

The latter scenario is not unusual among Masters of many styles. They prefer instead to demo the katas and the applications in a more basic and rudimentary manner, which succeeds in concealing their true skill level, but also tends to encourage general assumptions that this is all they have, and that the demo reflects the best that they can do. This is oftentimes an illusion which simply isn't true.

In any case, varying degrees of mastery are quite common in every martial art.

[C.J.Wang]

Hmmm.........seems like a speculation, but is it possible that Yamashita was exposed to Ed Parker's American Kenpo system and incorporated some of its elements from it? His whippy, and "overkilling" style reminds me very much of Kenpo.

[Doc Stier]

His whippy, and "overkilling" style reminds me very much of Kenpo.

Yamashita has said previously that his application performance style developed to what it is now when he went to Hong Kong and Taiwan to seek out and research the original versions of the form sets included in Shorin-ryu. Sort of his way of reverse engineering the Shorin-ryu back to Siu-lum Kuen.

Since then, he can perform all of the sets in either the Chinese style version or the Okinawan style version. And since the Chinese versions are much more circular and relaxed than the typical Okinawan versions, his manner of performing the techniques became softer and more fluidly connected, and with much faster combinations than before.

Very interesting!

[Andy_S]

Doc:

I am not comparing Nagamine and Yamishita, I am comparing Katsuhiko Shinzato (ie the Okinawan 7-dan master you posted earlier, who does two different versions of the kata split screen: "his" version and the "orthodox" version) with - well, most everyone else in karate.

All my comments above were regarding Shinzato and his methods: specifically, his shen fa and fajin, which exhibit a clear body wave, dantien motion and a high level of relaxation producing a 'whippy' execution. I don't see this in Nagamine's more standard interpretation of Shorin kata at all. In fact I see little to praise in Nagamine's performance; to me it looks stiff, robotic, lacks full body connection and is, generally plodding. (Yes, karate people go ahead and crucify me...)

As noted, I can't comment on Yamashita, as he is applying against an opponent rather than doing kata. Though I am interested to read what you say about him being able to perform the kata in their "Chinese versions." That having been said: What is "Chinese style?"

To my eye, Shinzato is performing his karate with the body methods of IMA.

The Uechi Ryu guy posted first appears to be exhibting the body methods of Fujien systems. (Which incidentally, employ a lot of tension as well as relaxation.)

[Doc Stier]

I am not comparing Nagamine and Yamishita, I am comparing Katsuhiko Shinzato (ie the Okinawan 7-dan master you posted earlier, who does two different versions of the kata split screen: "his" version and the "orthodox" version) with - well, most everyone else in karate.

My bad. I meant to refer to Master Shinzato as well. To my eye, both Shinzato Sensei and Yamashita Sensei display a type of movement and body mechanics that is more akin to Chinese IMA methods than to the standard Okinawan karate styles that they originally practiced, as demonstrated by Nagamine Sensei.

Of interest to me, is that some Okinawan practitioners, like Shinzato Sensei and Yamashita Sensei, have apparently been motivated to research the origins of their style, and in so doing have beneficially incorporated elements of practice and performance that others of the same style choose to dismiss or ignore.

I agree that the Uechi-ryu demonstrated in the opening clip, while also of Chinese origin, clearly employs different methods of training to develop power, like the San-chin Kata for example, than that used in the Shorin-ryu styles.

Nonetheless, it's all good when properly learned and tenaciously trained.