by Andy_S on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:27 pm
Ors:
Sounds like a good approach, though IMHO, there should be full-power shuia PH in there at some point too. We do set patterns, then move to shuiao PH. There is no out-of-contact fighting or sanda in the Chen XX method or our school (though I hear a lot of Chen people saying, "Eventually, you move from PH to sanda...well, I have yet to see it). This is a shame and a hole in the training. We occassionally do application drills, though there is more emphasis on wrestling techniques. Outside the formal class structure, I and a few of the senior guys (with other MA exp) also practice qinna from grabs, entries, bridges, etc, and generally play around. Nobody gloves up and goes for it though, and I (at 43) am a bit beyond that myself: My MT days are behind me.
I last visited Hungary in 1993, but if I come again, you can be sure I will contact you.
BrianK:
I don't think it is a copout by the teachers: They don't really claim to teach a fighting art, they claim to teach their clan's Taiji, which is - in the 21st century - a very different thing. I am not sure why Chen XW is showing these rather silly. from-out-of-contact qinna moves - you'd have to ask him that yourself. I did not mean that Chen XW was being secretive, I meant that he was unwilling to change his own training methods toward something more combative. And indeed, he - and the other major village masters - make a very, very nice living teaching a non-combative curriculum globally.
The broader problem I see is:
(1) Students of Chen Taiji expecting eventually to get something from these men which is simply not there;
(2) Students believing with zero empirical basis that they have the goods when they blatantly dont. A recent, popular Eng lang book about Chen Taiji talks a lot about how it is the real Taiji combat art, and has an appendix with reams of stories of fighting Chen masters, but has not got a single detail (let alone a chapter) on how fighting skills are meant to be developed.
I should add that I am only talking about the 19th generation village masters. Chen Yu in Beijing is a different kettle of fish as far as apps go (though I have seen no sanda) and as noted, the younger, 20th generation peeps in the village have a strong enough background in shuia PH to form a very respectable fighting foundation.
When I was in the village last year, a friend and I had scheduled some shuia PH privates with Chen Zijun. I think Chen Ziqiang, who was teaching a class at the same time, was pretty surprised that foreigners were interested enough to pay for technical instruction this - though he was happy to wrestle with them. After our lesson was over, a South African girl (who had a solid MA background) and who had been at the village school for several months invited me to do some wrestling with her just so she could show Chen Ziqiang that she was interested in fighting. After he saw that she was, he took her onto the floor and started working with her.
The above having been said....I am pretty sure that Chen XX could defend himself, if necessary, against most of what one realistically expects to encounter on 'da streetz:' He has power, technique, sensitivity.
But he is not a fighter and does not compare to those who are.
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