Beautifull tuishou demo

[ors]

Hi everyone!

Is there anyone here who is familiar with this lineage? I have seen their homepage and found quite a lot very interesting material. As I remeber the teacher of this man (Dai Ying), Zhang Daquan was the taiji teacher of Qian Zhaohong, the xinyi guy as well...

I think this is one of the most beautifull tuishou demo what I have seen in a while with very nicely developed skills.

Örs

[bruce]

i do not put much value on what was shown.
what use are those skills shown in actual self defense?

-if your only goal is to push a person away unless your tactic is to push and run you will still be in danger.
-why does the student just seem to let the teacher do what ever he wants?
-it seems the teacher at for example 37 seconds just uses his arms to push. is that not breaking the "rules"?
-will those tactics be useful against a person who does not have any knowledge of tai chi chuan?

[Martin]

Thanks Tom Yep - Qian's main taiji is from Chen Jisheng (even if he changed some bits) but he also practised Wu style with Zhang Daquan, this guy's teacher.

[GrahamB]

I think he's good, but Bruce is right - that student? At 0.28 he clearly takes a running dive. I think he could do with a better demo partner who isn't trying to make him look good. It would probably look less "impressive" then, but a bit more "real".

[bruce]

I think he's good, but Bruce is right - that student? At 0.28 he clearly takes a running dive. I think he could do with a better demo partner who isn't trying to make him look good. It would probably look less "impressive" then, but a bit more "real".

the voice over says "taijiquan is for self defense". in my training i guess i have adjusted some of my tactics to who/what i am likely to defend from.
what i do not see here (with the exception of a few nice little things) is what he is training to defend from.

to balance that out about needing a better demo partner i dont think the demo partner should try to make him look "bad" or to disrespect or challenge his authority or anything like that.
if this activity is training a attribute that is used to defend yourself from attack it should study how people actually attack and respond to being attacked.

it just seems silly to me how easy the student was being controlled.

one of the most important things to think about with push hands to me is that it is a study of the moment in time where contact is made. (i hope ya'all can understand what i am trying to say)

[stan baker]

that kind of push hands gives taiji a bad name

stan

[Chris Fleming]

Crap.

[Walk the Torque]

+1

[bruce]

Well I don't need to defend the tuishou in the clip. You either see moments of value in what is there, or you don't. I didn't listen to the voice over, and I don't know who did the translation, but what I see in there is a specific type of training for a limited, specific purpose focusing on ting jin and transforming/changing at a very low level of contact. If the teacher was demonstrating this as an example of RBSD and how to handle aggressive hard contact, then it is simply bad marketing and/or deliberate misrepresentation--no argument there. I just wanted to point out that tuishou serves a wide range of training purposes, and light-contact mutually-cooperative interaction is one legitimate training purpose for tuishou that ignoramuses, self-presumed cognoscenti and bored bad boys of Internet MA forums frequently mistake for the whole of the martial methodologies of taijiquan.

Cheers.

the "voice over" i referenced seemed to be the mc who was translating for the english speaking people what was going on onstage.

they did not imply that to be a example of rbsd... they simply said that tai chi chuan is a self defense art.

sensitivity is a essential attribute if you want to "use" tai chi chuan for self defense. i do like some of what he showed but at the same time in my opinion he shows many flaws as i noted before.

i do not know anything about the person so i am lumping him in with the group i see doing that type of push hands. it seems that this is all you ever see and is the pinnacle of tai chi chuan. that is the impression that i get from these type of people. i may be wrong ...

[Andy_S]

Tom:

Stan is the most dismissive poster I have come across on this (or any) forum, so I am not sure if it is worth you wasting your breath on trying to influence his set-in-concrete opinions on the excellence of his own teacher and lack thereof of virtually all others. I agree with Bruce that the drills posted have nothing to do with SD, though also agree with you that they may have other values. As always, one wants to feel it oneself. (Gentlemen, you can leave that last remark IN context, thank you very much!)

Would be interested to see film or shots of this Wu Ji Jin Gong Taiji if anything comes to light. I have never heard of Chen Ji-seng or his Chen style training, but he was teaching at a very interesting time and place in the modern history of CMA.

[oldtyger]

Not sure how beautiful it is but it's an interesting clip and shows some different skills. Tuishou, in my understanding, is not self-defense but it is the primary skill set in taijiquan and is the core for advancing to self-defense and fighting. I agree with some above that perhaps it is not realistic but it's very important to have a cooperative partner in order to develop certain aspects. Once you have, then you can move on and adapt your tuishou skills into something more practical. As far as the arms moving without the body, this is a simple skill and is internal because the hands connect with the partner as well as into the arms and down the spine and the legs down to the feet and ground.

Rich

[Walk the Torque]

Just to be clear, my +1 was in suport of this clip. Having practiced tai chi for a long time I am in no doubt as to the validity of good pushing hands skills as both seperat from and part of self defense training. I have fallen back on ting jin a number of times in very real situations, stopping people hurting both themselves and others.

[ors]

Tom, Martin!

Thanks for the infos guys! If I understand the Chineese in their website well, Ji Zhixiu was a younger brother of Wu Quanyu, just as Tom described. If that is truth, It is very interesting how similar their form to wu style...

As to the tuishou clip:

I have to add, I have never listened the "voice over", so I haven't been influenced by that... The teacher's structure is so obvious and well developed, that I hardly remeber any other demo on youtube to which I can compare it succesfully. He can keep his stucture and use it very well in the whole demo, while he can controll his partner quite easily, find his weakpoints and so and so. He is strong but all his strenght is coming from his good structure and positioning.
This is a very good tuishou demo, with some very well developed taiji skills.

Tuishou is not fighting and not wrestling (especially this kind of tuishou play!). It is a training tool in which you can mesure your development. Looking it from other perspectives is not understandable and meaningless in my opinion.

Cheers!

Örs

[Yuen-Ming]

At the taijiprobe.com website, I saw similar postures to Wu (Jianquan) taiji, but didn't see any mention of Chen Jizheng. The lineage given at the website is Yang Lushan (Luchan) to Ji Zhixiu to Zhang Daquan to Dai Ying (杨露禅――纪之修――张达泉――戴英). It makes me wonder if Ji Zhixiu is another name for Quan Yu (Wu Jianquan's father). I certainly had not encountered the name in any of the English-language lineages coming down from Yang Luchan before.

Tom,

while it is true that Zhang studied with Ji De (Zixiu), not only TJQ but various other things and especially Yue style Sanshou, he then moved to Shanghai and spent most of his time with Wu Jianquan - whom he also took as his teacher - and latere passed down mostly his (Wu style) square frame

YM