"Taiji is Easy to Learn..."

[Andy_S]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmLLGzEk ... re=related

"Taiji is easy to learn, takes only a few minutes a day..."

Well shag me sideways with a donkey's dick! I have been struggling with this complicated bloody old ladies' art for hours a bloody day for over a bloody decade and am far from satisfied with my skills! What the hell have I been doing wrong? Am I an unteachable idiot?

I mean, she is on TV, so she must be right...right?

[Ron Panunto]

Maybe you should take up golf Andy!

[charles]

"It's Tai Chi. Technically, it's a martial art, but these people aren't training to be fighters..."

There's your problem. You're still training it to be a fighter. Only the foolish - or those with access to a teacher who can actually use it to fight - do that.

[bailewen]

This is really close to a topic I keep almost but not quite starting. The phrase I keep hearing in Xi'an...the phrase that seems really really weird to me is...

Of course he can't apply his stuff. He hasn't learned any Taiji yet....

I'm like WTF? I was mostly hearing it in regard to a Xingyi guy who's been around lately. He learned Xingyi and Bagua but not Taiji and I'm sitting around the park listening to this conversation about how Xingyi is great for health or whatnot but how if you want to learn to fight, you have to learn Taiji.

Go figure.

[Andy_S]

Omar:

Kindly explicate...

Ron:

Thank'ee for the advice, but alas, I can't afford golf - so I'm stuck with a semi-mystical Chinese art that:
Was 100 years ago the ultimate martial art but is today an exercise for old ladies;
Morever, if taught to more youthful chaps like self, presents a fiendishly demanding body mechanic that even years of training does not guarantee, as there is layer upon layer of skill; and
Etc, etc, etc. (YYu know what I am talking about)

Charles:

Not strictly true. At 43 I am far less combative that I was in my feckless youth....though yes, dammit, I DO have a mild interest in this side of the art. That having been said, if fighting were my top priority, I am fortunate to be acquainted with one of the finest BJJ teachers on earth, and there is also some pretty decent MT nearby.

As for Chen Taiji teachers who use it to fight: Please ID a few for me. Bar the tourney PH boys (who are mainly clustered in Henan) I don't know of ANY Chen Taiji fighters these days.

[charles]

Omar:
Not strictly true. At 43 I am far less combative that I was in my feckless youth....though yes, dammit, I DO have a mild interest in this side of the art. That having been said, if fighting were my top priority, I am fortunate to be acquainted with one of the finest BJJ teachers on earth, and there is also some pretty decent MT nearby.

As for Chen Taiji teachers who use it to fight: Please ID a few for me. Bar the tourney PH boys (who are mainly clustered in Henan) I don't know of ANY Chen Taiji fighters these days.

I was mostly just pulling your leg.

We'd have to define what is meant by "fighting". (Yes, we all know that push hands, sport competitions, etc. aren't fighting...) Regardless of definition, there are people who can use it for actual on-the-streets fighting, albeit relatively few, but even then, few of those frequently engage in actual fighting, especially these days. Those that do aren't famous and aren't people most of us are likely to hear about.

[Josealb]

Dammn....Thats the rep Xingyi has on Xi'an?

Makes you want to go over there and cause a fuss...

[gretel]

i liked what that old lady was doing at .023.

i myself may be an unteachable idiot because it's taken me 5 + years and i'm nowhere near the relaxed elegance of that second. of course i may be idealizing her just because she's probably older than me.

gretel

[bailewen]

Jose (and Andy by way of explication?)

lol. I think it may be just the rep among a few people. Seems to me like most of the folks around here who train one, train all three but everyone has their specialty. Shifu's specialty is Taiji. And btw, I've never heard him say that. I just keep hearing it from people know know him. I think we just don't have enough Xingyi fighty types here. There's an incredible amount of Taiji around town through and from people like Li Suicheng who is always putting his students into amateur Sanda competitions like Wulinfeng or my own Shifu who is kind of feared around town and there's even one of Chen Xiaowang's uncles over on the west side.

I think that in my immediate circle the idea is that what you really need if you want to apply this stuff is a firm grasp of "yin yang changes". There's a kind of creative free form thinking that really gets you out of the form and into free flow applications that you get from proper push hands training that seems to be lacking in the Xingyi around here. The Xingyi peeps I have seen...so far...tend to be stuck in the ming jing phase. Some have really incredible frames and fantastic power IMHO, but it's hard power so it's easily disrupted.

Funny thing is, I think my most senior training brother, who you may have seen a clip of, would have no problem applying his Xingyi at all but then, he's not a good example to prove the point as he has a Shuai Jiao background and also, he has studied many years of Taiji. But as far as specialties goes, he seems to have made Xingyi his main choice. It's all I ever see him do at demos and he's been working as a judge for the Xingyi rounds of the Wulindahui.

Anyways, yeah, just idle chatter and yeah, I mentioned it because it's so ass-backwards from how we would tend to think of things. Xingyi is supposed to be the practical one.

[Andy_S]

Bailewen:

SNIP
I think that in my immediate circle the idea is that what you really need if you want to apply this stuff is a firm grasp of "yin yang changes".
SNIP

That is a very, VERY germane point indeed.

IMHO, the key skill in IMA is the ability to flow and/or change, mid-technique. I think it would be easy to train HsingI as a ballistic striking art, and never really get a handle on changing. To nurture this ability, a 'soft' training method is essential. Hence Taiji's PH, and its long-term 'investment in loss.' (Of course, other grappling-based arts also train changability well - judo and BJJ spring to mind.)

SNIP
Some have really incredible frames and fantastic power IMHO, but it's hard power so it's easily disrupted.
SNIP

Bingo!

Though the reverse, of course, is also very true: Many Taiji peeps lack hard power or experience of dealing with hard power so although they get soft and changeable, they can never fight because a fight features so much jolty, jagged force, but they are used to dealing with smooth, rounded force. Of course, if people graduate from set PH to wrestling PH this problem is minimized.....although, just as many HsingI peeps may lack exp of grappling, many Taiji peeps (even the tough ones) may lack exp of striking.

Anyhoo...your comments above suggest to me (and IME and IMHO) that there is a sophisticated understanding of applied TCMA in Xian. With so many people today doing TCMA but applying it like kickboxing (and I am sure this is true in China as well as elsewhere) that is a breath of fresh air.

This thread has generated more interesting discussion that I anticipated when I posted the clip.

BTW, would be interested in seeing that clip of your older brother and his HsingI. Does your instructor also teach HsingI (in addition to Baji, Taji, Bagu and various long fisty forms, right). I often feel that HsingI has the same specialities - high level power generation and striking - as Baji, so kind of wonder why do both....?

[Andy_S]

Charles:

I will thank you not to pull me leg, sir! As regards PH tourneys and the skills such grappling imparts: I would say the guys who do this training/competing are the fighters in (Chen) Taiji right now. I would also say that these skills impart a fairly decent combative ability. I should add that my thinking - which used to be predominantly kickboxing-and-groundwork-based, rather than stand-up-grappling based - has changed on this in the last couple of years.

[bailewen]

Andy,

By "yin yang change" I am also alluding to something more subtle than just changing your technique mid-flow. I am referring to something more like what I believe Upyu and Bodywork are always trying to describe. A subtle complexity within a single technique that allows you to redirect force from within. In theory, all 3 sister arts have it. In practice, and of course this is just from the prejudice of a group who's teacher has decided he likes Taiji best, it tends to get better developed with Taiji training than with the other two. I readily admit that this may be more to do with who's training what around here than with the arts themselves.

Many Taiji peeps lack hard power or experience of dealing with hard power so ...[snip]... if people graduate from set PH to wrestling PH this problem is minimized.....

It's also minimized if they train BAJI!!! along side all that wimpy moral foolishness.

BTW, would be interested in seeing that clip of your older brother and his HsingI. Does your instructor also teach HsingI (in addition to Baji, Taji, Bagu and various long fisty forms, right). I often feel that HsingI has the same specialities - high level power generation and striking - as Baji, so kind of wonder why do both....?

I have a clip of Dashixiong (big brother) performing Xing Yi at a holiday thing but I won't make it completely public. If you contact me on youtube and I get you on my "friends" list then I could share the video.

Shifu's basic formula is Yang style Taiji + Bajiquan. He teaches Xingyi and Bagua as well but they are not emphasized. He teaches Xiao Hongquan, Wubuquan and Tan Tui too but only to children. Baji and Xingyi are ultimately no more similar than Bagua and Taiji or Xingyi and Bagua. Why do more than 1 of any of the IMA? There's a good argument to be made that you shouldn't. Fact is, I don't do much Xing Yi. The formula here is, as I said, Taiji + Baji. All the rest is supplemental.