Yiquan jianwu dance by Han Xingqiao

[Pandrews1982]

In our xing yi line we practice something called Yan Yi (Research Intent) which is very similar to Jianwu. We are told it is not martial at all, its a way of experiementing with movement, intention and energy. You don't really need it to learn martial arts but it helps you understand things in your martial arts practice. I don't know if Yan yi is the original name of the practice or if it was different in the past. I was taught that it was a high level practice that only few were taught. I've never come across it anywhere else so far but jianwu is the closest resemblance to what we do I've seen.

Da Cheng, do you have any more info on Huang Muqiao? I read in a Yi Quan ebook that he was a xing yi master but i can't find much more than that online. Maybe others have access to other sources of info about this person?

[Josealb]

If its something you do at high levels...then it makes sense that it does not involve martial...because at a high level everything else martial is already supposed to be a part of you. Its taken for granted that to train that type of spontaneous, free form, improvised movement where the Yi and the shen leads the body, You already have to own the goods. If you dont its just an empty dance.

Am i getting this with the right angle?

[dacheng]

Da Cheng, do you have any more info on Huang Muqiao? I read in a Yi Quan ebook that he was a xing yi master but i can't find much more than that online. Maybe others have access to other sources of info about this person?

I only know what appears in yiquan sources, and here the information is something like: master of southern branch of xinyi, whom Wang met in Anhui province.

But it seems that that for Wang anything which he thought was good was kind of xinyi So according to some yiquan people, when he was talking about those white crane people whom he met in Fujian province, he also called them xinyi experts. And well, in his first book, Wang wrote that this art (yiquan) was created by ... Bodhidharma

[Pandrews1982]

Jose, yes I think that's about right. At the level of understanding i'm at when you do this you try to let the Yi take over and you disconnect the Xin so that you let your body move wherever it wants to with the only condition that it should not break the flow of energy/momentum. Thus two individuals doing the practice i refer to may be equally proficent but it can look vastly different in appearance.

BTW by high level, I'm not implying I'm at a high level I've probably been shown this earlier than would have been done in the past. I was told in the past this kind of thing was passed on after a practitioner had got to a very good level of martial proficiency. The practice I refer to is as much an art with the same level of depth and complexity as xing yi itself and as such could be taught to a complete beginner though it would not particularly help them with the martial practice until they understood the overlap between the two. The practice we do goes from standing, to very small movements, to movement, to linked movements, to sponteneous movement, I've been told there is more but i haven't been taught this yet.

How is Jianwu taught in Yi Quan? By this I don't mean how is it practiced, but how do you progress to doing Jianwu from the basic Yi Quan methods (Shi li, fa li etc.)? Is it a leap of intuition, trial and error, small progressive steps?

I'm more interested to learn more about the link between xing yi and jianwu though if the info is available, I've perviously asked a yi quan practitioner in the UK but was given only about as much info as already has given already on this thread.

[Wanderingdragon]

There is no info to be passed on , it is a natural manifestation of your art , advance and retreat , attack and defend, like any and all other arts, the spirit moves you. There is no error in this dance only vision

[Strange]

But it seems that that for Wang anything which he thought was good was kind of xinyi

[Sprint]

JThe practice I refer to is as much an art with the same level of depth and complexity as xing yi itself and as such could be taught to a complete beginner though it would not particularly help them with the martial practice until they understood the overlap between the two.

If I'm reading you right then this idea is entirely different from jianwu. Jianwu is the expression of all your previous training -all the long hours of zhan zhuang. shili and fali are condensed into this "dance". It relies completely on a very specific way of moving that cannot be learned in isolation from normal yiquan practice. And of course it is martial. The practitioner is demonstrating complete understanding of the mind and body interaction that produces what so many refer to as internal power. It is both random and specific. Random in the sense that there is no set form as in 18 or 24 steps; specific in that it is a demonstration of the expression and implementation of hunyuan li. It should demonstrate the mind leading the force.

If you think about mo li where you are feeling for force in all directions simultaneously and then throw in random movement with coordinated fa li you'll get the idea of it.

[C.J.Wang]

I heard that the reason Wang named it Jian Wu (health dance) was to avoid troubles from the goverment during cultural revolution in which MAists were persecuted. By spreading his art as a form of health exercise, he managed to preserve it while keeping himiself safe.

[Pandrews1982]

Sprint, not sure if you did read me correctly, but I don't want to get into a debate over style definitions etc. when the real deal is the very nice video of han xingqiao. My interest is looking for the links and similarities there rather than trying to define something or say whether it is one thing or another. The fact yi quan is derived primarily from xing yi and there is ancedotal evidence that jianwu was taught by a xing yi practitioner just made me think there could well be a connection.

Just FYI the practice I described isn't intended for beginners, it has a variety of levels to it, from zhan zhuang to free movement we call all of this Yan Yi not just the part where you combine everythign into what looks to be like jian wu. You can't just jump in there and dance about, it is in fact very difficult but different to martial practice, there is still discipline and effort and foundational training required, usually the xing yi practitioner has already had some of this foundational training hence why this might be introduced later. What I was saying is not that this is an inferior art or practice but that theoretically you could teach this practice to someone with no interest in the martial arts, they could become very proficient, develop internal movement and use of energy but without applying this to a martial context with positioning, strategy, psychology etc. The idea of feeling force in all directions is in there too, the only real difference I see is that in the yi quan version you guys express force (fa li) and we just don't because its not what we are looking for in this practice.

From speaking with other Yi quan guys about this I think the "how its done" is very similar in my practice of yan yi and in jianwu but the "what its for" is where things separate. I think I'll duck out now so not to derail this thread any more feel free to PM if you'd liek to talk more.

Wanderingdragon - not sure what you mean by "there is no error" sounds good though. Do you mean that because it's spontaneous you're not confined by going out of sequence from a form or do you literally mean that you don't make mistakes? Even in a spontaneous practice you can make mistakes, you can think you're moving clearly but maybe unconnected or not completely balanced etc.

[Wanderingdragon]

What I mean in "there is know error", is that in this dance you are focused on the manifestation of force in a connected motion,which is led by your vision or intent, if the connection is broken the dance is over, as the power of your flow will know longer lead you smoothly, you will easily run out of gas if you continue, I guess here would be the mistake , to continue. This is Kung Fu at it's most abstract, hard to explain.

[Sprint]

Hi Pandrews1982

If you watch the following jianwu demonstrated by Yao Chengguang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnizwvEl5PI it will give you a flavor of how jianwu is understood in yiquan. From this you may be able to say more about what you consider the similarities and differences to be.

[jjy5016]

Thanks for sharing this Dacheng. Wanted to see this one for a long time. There's more video of big Han out there but as with his younger brother's films getting people to share them is like trying to make the eagle on a quarter shit for you.

From what I was told Wang Xiang Zhai said that Han Qiao was the only one who "got" jian wu. That is not to say that others didn't get it after Wang's passing.

We can see a big influence from lhbf and bagua as well in Han's jian wu. My teacher learned it from big Han but always practiced much slower. I believe Han was going a bit on the fast side just for the purpose of demonstration. I have video of another one of big Han's students and he does jian wu slow. It's not supposed to be all flashy movements and hopping around like most of the videos we see. It's just supposed to be a free form of all the yiquan principles put into practice. Depending on what other styles one learned will definitely have an influence on what's in their jian wu. If one studied lhbf, bagua and hsingyi it would show ih his jian wu. If one studied taiji and shaolin then some of the techniques would show up in it ans so on.

There is a lot of spirit, yi, direction changes, different stepping methods and a whole lot of other stuff involved in jian wu. Unfortunately from what I usually see it looks like everyone these days learned from a video of someone else. Hopping up and down, bouncing to the sides. Some of it makes me embarassed to say that I practice yiquan. I learned that it should be very focused and exact. Free form is good but if one breaks the basic rules of quan in his jian wu then it's not jian wu, just shit.

small John

[Wanderingdragon]

What I see in Han's interpretation is what I haven't seen in others, the fact that he covers high , middle and lower basins rather than just high , to me it is a sign of greater intent, indicative of whole body awareness , not just footwork and hands.

[jjy5016]

I wish that there was more footage available from some of the other second generation student out there. All I've seen so far are big and small Han, Yao and Li Jian Yu. Small Han never even learned jian wu.

As for learning jian wu, well it involves a level of proficiency in the basic practices of yiquan. Zhan zhuang, shi li, mo cha bo and shi sheng. Each of these practices builds upon the last so once they are all learned and can be done like second nature then one combines them into jian wu. At least that's how my teacher taught. Doesn't make sense to have someone do a free form war dance if he doesn't have proper form or move properly or have a certain power in his movements.

My teacher taught it with lots of changes in directions using bagua and hsingyi footwork and small, concise movement when issuing power, not hands whipping about uncontroled about the body.

Perhaps some day some more footage of second generation students will come out.

[I-mon]

I thought that video of Yao Chengguang was excellent as well, demonstrating that he has a very high level of skill - but I think it shows again what I have thought before when watching his methods and watching his students spar, that they have become too focused on the western boxing techniques and show no body methods appropriate to throwing or counter-throwing which we can see so much of in taiji xingyi and bagua.

anyway good stuff.

Quick question for the yiquan guys: what is the name of the exercise where the arms and body make opposite circles? Must be a kind of shili but when the hands pull down the body rises, body sinks when hands rise, body moves left when hands move right, etc.

This guy does some of what I'm talking about at about 0:45 in this excellent video: