PUsh Hand Jia You!

[Formosa Neijia]

i don't believe that ph should be a sport. i've found that my own (and many folks that i've pushed with, but certainly not everyone i've pushed with) learning process in ph suffers when it gets competitive. and don't we all practice ph to actually learn something?

Cooperative PH is absolutely necessary to build ting jin. There's just no way around that fact. If people don't do it, then they'll never have it. But the ting jin exists for a purpose and that purpose to to put the man down on the ground or submit him. There MUST be something after cooperative PH or it's all just a waste of time, martially speaking. Competitive PH is the logical next step.

Dave C.

[DeusTrismegistus]

i don't believe that ph should be a sport. i've found that my own (and many folks that i've pushed with, but certainly not everyone i've pushed with) learning process in ph suffers when it gets competitive. and don't we all practice ph to actually learn something?

Cooperative PH is absolutely necessary to build ting jin. There's just no way around that fact. If people don't do it, then they'll never have it. But the ting jin exists for a purpose and that purpose to to put the man down on the ground or submit him. There MUST be something after cooperative PH or it's all just a waste of time, martially speaking. Competitive PH is the logical next step.

Dave C.

I disagree that competitive push hands is the logical next step. If our goal is to be able to put someone down and submit them or whatever then competitive push hands is too restrictive still. You would be better off doing shuai jiao, judo, or san shou.

If push hands is a training exercise, then logically to advance you need to up the ante by increased force, and speed. If you compromise the practice and break the principles to "win" then you are only retarding your own progression. The video might have showed some level of taiji skill but if in cooperative push hands we must adhere to practice principles of using as little resistance as possible and using tingjin to absorb, redirect and follow, then any practice/competition that breaks away from adhering to those goals is no longer rightly called push hands.

[AllanF]

It doesn't matter what the opponent does, if he uses shuai jiao, karate or whatever it makes no difference if your taiji is good enough then you should be able to deal with it.

A lot of the time the competitors in the PH comps in China are from other MAs so they don't really understand the idea of PHs. That said personally i feel that your average dick in the street will not play the PHs game with you so you have to be able to deal with all different games not just someone who is also playing PHs. Therefore the competitive PHs is a natural extension.

Yes there was a fair amount of ding jin (resistance) from the competitiors but there were also some nice moments, after all the people who enter these comps are not "masters" they are trying to make a name for themselves so egos can get the better of them in the heat of the moment...a bit like a real fight.

[Formosa Neijia]

I disagree that competitive push hands is the logical next step. If our goal is to be able to put someone down and submit them or whatever then competitive push hands is too restrictive still. You would be better off doing shuai jiao, judo, or san shou.

If push hands is a training exercise, then logically to advance you need to up the ante by increased force, and speed. If you compromise the practice and break the principles to "win" then you are only retarding your own progression.

You don't have to compromise your principles in order to "win." You "win" by learning to do your stuff under pressure. If you can't, then you didn't really get the principles through the practice in the first place. Taijiquan has its own brand of shuai jiao built into it. This clip shows a usage of those techniques. You shouldn't have to leave your style to test your techniques.

Dave C.

[nianfong]

this is much better "push hands"

[middleway]

Judo or SC demonstrates a much more refined wrestling method than that seen in this video against resistance.



If this is the 'wrestling' of TaijijQuan ... then maybe JW was right all along!! lol

cheers
Chris

[Formosa Neijia]

Judo or SC demonstrates a much more refined wrestling method than that seen in this video against resistance.

If this is the 'wrestling' of TaijijQuan ... then maybe JW was right all along!!

Well, I wonder why? In judo, you MUST compete just to advance in rank. Everyone competes. It's just part of the art. People who are totally non-competitive won't even walk in the door because they quickly find out it's part of the art and has been for a long time. It's an Olympic sport with government sponsored teams!

It's pretty easy to come up with your "best of Judo" clip because there's so very much material to choose from.

So then isn't it a little bit unfair to expect the same level of expertise in a non-Olympic, mostly non-competitive, grappling art that has a completely different rule set?

Dave C.

[middleway]

It's pretty easy to come up with your "best of Judo" clip because there's so very much material to choose from.

So then isn't it a little bit unfair to expect the same level of expertise in a non-Olympic, mostly non-competitive, grappling art that has a completely different rule set?

Dave C.Formosa Neijia

No i dont think it is .... lets ignor the Judo clip then and look at the SC clip.... its not a olympic sport, its a non funded art.... As for non competetive ... well the thread CLEARLY is about TAIJI PUSH HANDS COMPETITION ... so i dont think thats relevant.

What you are essentially saying is. SC (or judo) has better technical grappling skill that Taiji because ..... if forces you to work against resisting opponents and its methods are based around that very principle.

Hence my point is ... if you want to learn that sort of skill or use it in a resistance based/competetive environment then why not go straight for the optimum training platform for that skill ... not try to create that skillset in a competitive way from a simple training method... which is what Push hands is.

IME most good 'taiji push hands' guys that focus on the competition side, that train mainly for their competitions and this training format .... would be better off going to their local Judo School.

HOWEVER ... i am not saying that Taiji and Judo can be compared as 'art forms' ... Personally i think that Taiji has more to offer than Judo as a 'martial art'. I think it is more effective in more ranges and situations of combat.

Here i am talking about the competetive aspect of Taiji that has sprung up over the last few years ... essentially wrestling contests.... The competitors that decide this is the aspect of Taiji that they want to focus on would be better off in another art.

Just my opinion.

Cheers
Chris

[DeusTrismegistus]

It doesn't matter what the opponent does, if he uses shuai jiao, karate or whatever it makes no difference if your taiji is good enough then you should be able to deal with it.

A lot of the time the competitors in the PH comps in China are from other MAs so they don't really understand the idea of PHs. That said personally i feel that your average dick in the street will not play the PHs game with you so you have to be able to deal with all different games not just someone who is also playing PHs. Therefore the competitive PHs is a natural extension.

Yes there was a fair amount of ding jin (resistance) from the competitiors but there were also some nice moments, after all the people who enter these comps are not "masters" they are trying to make a name for themselves so egos can get the better of them in the heat of the moment...a bit like a real fight.

Of course it doesn't matter what your opponent does if you taiji is good enough you should be able to deal with it. Taiji is not limited to what is allowed in push hands though.

Of course a person in the street is not going to play the push hands game. But why would a competitive version of a practice drill be any better than the practice drill for learning to deal with that? Push hands should help you develop certain attributes that you then need to practice in a free style sparring format to get the most out of.

[Areios]

i made no comment about the people in the OP or their skill. all i said was i didn't see any push hands in the clip. i did see some good wrestling skill. push hands (at least the way i learned it and try to play it) is not about being aggressive and strong, IMO. it's a training exercise. but i realize everyone's got their own ideas about these things, so i'll go ahead and shut my pie hole now.

I agree. PH is a learning tool not a competition. Wrestling is a competition where you can use what you learned in PH.

[kreese]

Anyone who has seen my comments before on clips may recognise a sort of polarity thing going on here but although on one level it is recognisable as not Tui Shou, I thought there was some good Taiji principles going on there in this clip and really liked it. The winner shows overall much better rooting, and I totally take my hat off to him when with weight distribution and ease he picks the soldier (I'm totally pressuming here as a lot of miltiary and police force in mainland China take part in theseTui Shou competions ) and completes the bloke.
You can sense that the winner's Ting Jin is of note in this.

It's not like I really know you, brother, but you've been posting a long time.

I appreciate you offering something positive. See? I think I know someone and then BAM! they go around and do something totally unpredictable. God bless us silly human beings.

[kreese]

I think the better you are, the less afraid you are to widen your scope of push hands. You have to say "let's pushhands!" and be ready to deal with someone trying to hurt you.

[SquattingMonkey]

Sorry guys but I wholeheartedly agree with Qiphlow in that the clip demonstrated some skillful wrestling on the part of the combatants but I didn't see any techniques that resembled any push hands to me. I found it very entertaining though.